Committee
Transport and the Environment Committee, 20 Nov 2002
20 Nov 2002 · S1 · Transport and the Environment Committee
Item of business
Water Environment and Water Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There is an element of groundhog day to this. I reassure Nora Radcliffe that preventing the deterioration of our water bodies is a key part of the bill, and that the Scottish Environment Protection Agency employs the principle of no deterioration in its work. That is part of the culture of environment protection in Scotland.Although the wording has changed since last week, the amendment is potentially damaging and many of my comments from last week still apply. The amendment would include in the bill a date from which the objective of no deterioration would kick in. Whereas last week's amendment 23 provided that the date should be the same as the date of royal assent, amendment 108 provides for the date to be at the end of the characterisation process for each body of water covered under section 5. As members know, section 5 requires characterisation to be carried out by 22 December 2004. For that reason, I believe that amendment 108 is unhelpful. It would set Scotland apart from the rest of our European partners.As I said last week, the water framework directive does not set a specific date from which a status of no deterioration becomes effective. I believe firmly that doing things in isolation from the rest of Europe would not be helpful. The same argument would apply to whatever date was proposed by an amendment. Any Scottish benchmark that is set separately from the rest of Europe risks putting our water users at a disadvantage to their competitors elsewhere in the European Union. At stage 1, in response to questions from Alasdair Morgan and others, I gave assurances that I would not put Scottish business, industry and commerce at a competitive disadvantage. I intend to adhere to that principle.Let me cover in more detail why 22 December 2004 would not be a sensible date at which to draw a line in the sand in this regard, as Nora Radcliffe proposes. Characterisation will improve considerably our knowledge about the condition of the water environment throughout Scotland. That is not the end of the process, however—in fact, it is not even the beginning of the end. As I said last week, the results of the characterisation will be subject to review and updating. In particular, the enhanced monitoring regime that we provide for under section 8, to which we will come shortly, will provide vital further information about all bodies of water, particularly those that are identified as being at risk during the characterisation process, and those are the ones about which Nora Radcliffe and other committee members will be most concerned. Members will be aware that the water framework directive requires the new monitoring regimes to be in place by December 2006.The 2004 date fails to take into account what is known as the intercalibration of biological monitoring results, as provided for under paragraph 1.4 of annexe 5 to the water framework directive. That process is designed to obviate the question of competitive disadvantage and to ensure a level playing field across Europe in terms of agreed environmental objectives. The process should ensure that good ecological status in one part of Europe is of an equivalent standard to what applies in the rest of Europe. Technically, that is not an easy job, as members will understand, but it is a very important job if we are to ensure a level competitive playing field.That process will start next year, with the provisional identification of reference sites. It will not be complete until halfway through 2006, two years after Nora Radcliffe's prospective date for the conclusion of the internal characterisation process. On that basis, amendment 108 would set a premature date. The Commission has, in any event, agreed to produce guidance on the date on which the no deterioration obligation takes effect and it would be premature for us to pre-empt that guidance from the Commission. For those reasons, we ask Nora Radcliffe to withdraw amendment 108.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
I welcome back to the committee the Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development, Allan Wilson and several officials from the Scottish Executive.Mem...
Section 1—General purpose of Part 1
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 108, in the name of Nora Radcliffe, is in a group on its own.
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD):
LD
In a sense, we are starting where we left off. At the end of our last meeting, I argued the case for the establishment of a benchmark against which the effec...
The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):
Lab
There is an element of groundhog day to this. I reassure Nora Radcliffe that preventing the deterioration of our water bodies is a key part of the bill, and ...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
With due respect, I refute some of the minister's arguments. The whole point about the water directive was that it gave member states flexibility. That way o...
Amendment 108, by agreement, withdrawn.
Section 1 agreed to.
Section 2—The general duties
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 24, in the name of Des McNulty, is grouped with amendments 56, 84, 27, 30 and 57.
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
I spoke on issues relating to amendment 24 last week, so in recognition that we do not want to spend a lot of time in groundhog day, I will not repeat every ...
The Convener:
Lab
Fiona McLeod has not yet arrived, so I invite Bruce Crawford to speak on amendment 84.
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Fiona's train has been held up. I shall speak on her behalf.Des McNulty said that amendment 56 was a probing amendment to see whether the minister would be p...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
The key words in amendment 27 are "active involvement". I concede that the bill includes a provision on consultation, which will bind SEPA to take account of...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
With amendment 30, I want to strengthen section 2(5) of the bill, which states:"Without prejudice to subsections (1) to (4), the Scottish Ministers and every...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
I support Des McNulty's amendment 24, because the three-legged stool approach to sustainable development—that there are three elements that should each be gi...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Many issues have been raised and I will try to work through them in a way that ensures that I take people with me.Amendment 24 asks us to insert a new paragr...
The Convener:
Lab
I thank the minister for his comprehensive response. The group contains a number of amendments. Because of that, I allowed the minister the opportunity of re...
Des McNulty:
Lab
I take on board the commitments that the minister made, in particular his important commitment to promote a stage 3 amendment that would have the effect of i...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Yes, I would be happy to do that.
Des McNulty:
Lab
On the basis of the minister's commitment, I am content to seek the committee's agreement to withdraw amendment 24.When I spoke to amendment 56, I indicated ...
The Convener:
Lab
Given that Des McNulty has put a question to the minister, I am prepared to allow the minister to respond to that.
Allan Wilson:
Lab
As I indicated earlier, wetlands are included in the designation. Des McNulty asked a specific question about the potential costs of amendment 57. We are con...
Des McNulty:
Lab
I understand from considerations within the European Union that there is likely to be a revision of the water directive, which will explicitly expand the req...
The Convener:
Lab
You can address that point to the minister, but I want to draw this discussion to a close, because we do not want a dialogue between the pair of you to conti...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Michael Kellet discussed precisely that at a European meeting either last week or two weeks ago. The relationship between the Executive and the EU as far as ...
The Convener:
Lab
I ask Des McNulty to complete his remarks briefly.
Des McNulty:
Lab
I have completed them already.
The Convener:
Lab
I understand that you indicated earlier that you wished to withdraw amendment 24. Is that correct?
Des McNulty:
Lab
Yes.