Committee
Transport and the Environment Committee, 22 Nov 2000
22 Nov 2000 · S1 · Transport and the Environment Committee
Item of business
Transport (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I will deal with each amendment in turn in order to explain the reasoning behind them.
Amendment 273 inserts the phrase "including a concessionaire" in section 69(1)(a). The body responsible for the management and maintenance of a bridge is not always easily identifiable, as we know from the long and tortuous negotiations that were held with a variety of different bodies when people tried to find out which body was responsible for the Skye bridge tolls.
Therefore, it is important that the proposal in amendment 273 be included in the bill. The method of assignation used in relation to the Skye bridge was that of a concessionaire and that is why we lodged amendment 273.
Amendment 274 adds to section 69(1)(a) the phrase:
"or pursuant to any enactment".
Understanding how a body was established or how a management stream was put in place is not always straightforward. Skye Bridge Ltd was not created by a Skye bridge act, as the company was put in place by orders pursuant to the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991.
Amendment 275 adds the phrase:
"or remove certain powers from the body".
Bruce Crawford said that the SNP is arguing that the Scottish ministers should have the power to do something about the Skye bridge; however, we are not arguing that the Scottish ministers should have the power to dissolve a private company. The ministers must be able to take into account the democratic wishes of the people in the control of what is happening with the tolls on the Skye bridge. In proposing to remove certain powers from the body, we are saying not that the ministers should be able to dissolve a company, but that they should be able to remove certain powers that are not being used in the public interest—as in the case that we have been discussing.
Amendment 276 is along the same lines. Its aim is to
"allow the Scottish Ministers to pay compensation to any relevant body whose powers are removed under subsection (1)".
It is for the Scottish Executive to decide whether a private company would be financially penalised by a change to the 1991 Government policy that allowed Skye Bridge Ltd to set and collect tolls.
Bruce Crawford said that we should not get caught up in numbers when we are talking about these amendments, which address the issue of the Skye bridge. Nevertheless, I would like to put it on record that, although amendment 276 is about compensation, it does not necessarily mean that Skye Bridge Ltd would come out of such a deal with compensation due. The financial position over the Skye bridge must be reviewed with extreme caution.
Enormous amounts of money have gone into the Skye bridge. To date, at least £30 million of public money has been channelled through Highland Council into the Skye bridge. About £10 million of European Community money has also been allocated to the project, and much of that money has come through the Scottish Executive. If the Executive ever came to discuss removing Skye Bridge Ltd's powers and compensating it, we would have to take into account the many millions of pounds of public money that that company has received. It should be remembered that, way back in the 1980s, when the Skye bridge was first costed, the price was estimated at £10 million. The company has subsequently received plenty of money from the public purse.
Amendment 280 seeks to add to the definitions at the end of section 69, to explain what the term concessionaire—which I included in amendment 273—means in law.
Amendment 273 inserts the phrase "including a concessionaire" in section 69(1)(a). The body responsible for the management and maintenance of a bridge is not always easily identifiable, as we know from the long and tortuous negotiations that were held with a variety of different bodies when people tried to find out which body was responsible for the Skye bridge tolls.
Therefore, it is important that the proposal in amendment 273 be included in the bill. The method of assignation used in relation to the Skye bridge was that of a concessionaire and that is why we lodged amendment 273.
Amendment 274 adds to section 69(1)(a) the phrase:
"or pursuant to any enactment".
Understanding how a body was established or how a management stream was put in place is not always straightforward. Skye Bridge Ltd was not created by a Skye bridge act, as the company was put in place by orders pursuant to the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991.
Amendment 275 adds the phrase:
"or remove certain powers from the body".
Bruce Crawford said that the SNP is arguing that the Scottish ministers should have the power to do something about the Skye bridge; however, we are not arguing that the Scottish ministers should have the power to dissolve a private company. The ministers must be able to take into account the democratic wishes of the people in the control of what is happening with the tolls on the Skye bridge. In proposing to remove certain powers from the body, we are saying not that the ministers should be able to dissolve a company, but that they should be able to remove certain powers that are not being used in the public interest—as in the case that we have been discussing.
Amendment 276 is along the same lines. Its aim is to
"allow the Scottish Ministers to pay compensation to any relevant body whose powers are removed under subsection (1)".
It is for the Scottish Executive to decide whether a private company would be financially penalised by a change to the 1991 Government policy that allowed Skye Bridge Ltd to set and collect tolls.
Bruce Crawford said that we should not get caught up in numbers when we are talking about these amendments, which address the issue of the Skye bridge. Nevertheless, I would like to put it on record that, although amendment 276 is about compensation, it does not necessarily mean that Skye Bridge Ltd would come out of such a deal with compensation due. The financial position over the Skye bridge must be reviewed with extreme caution.
Enormous amounts of money have gone into the Skye bridge. To date, at least £30 million of public money has been channelled through Highland Council into the Skye bridge. About £10 million of European Community money has also been allocated to the project, and much of that money has come through the Scottish Executive. If the Executive ever came to discuss removing Skye Bridge Ltd's powers and compensating it, we would have to take into account the many millions of pounds of public money that that company has received. It should be remembered that, way back in the 1980s, when the Skye bridge was first costed, the price was estimated at £10 million. The company has subsequently received plenty of money from the public purse.
Amendment 280 seeks to add to the definitions at the end of section 69, to explain what the term concessionaire—which I included in amendment 273—means in law.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Mr Andy Kerr):
Lab
I begin the 28th meeting this year of the Transport and the Environment Committee by welcoming members, the Minister for Transport, press and public alike to...
The Minister for Transport (Sarah Boyack):
Lab
I wish to make a brief apology to the committee. Some of you may have noticed that the Executive has not lodged the amendment on redetermination orders of fo...
The Convener:
Lab
Minister, you can rest assured that we had all spotted that and we were awaiting your announcement.
After section 68
The Convener:
Lab
We come to amendment 283, in the name of Helen Eadie, which is in a group of its own.
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I will not reiterate everything that I said in moving one of my amendments last week. This is déjà vu for me. It is the third time that I have raised this is...
Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I came to this matter with an entirely open mind and did not react to the party political speech that was just made. The retail comparison is entirely flawed...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
As I said last week when Helen Eadie moved a similar amendment, I sympathise with her position. I have opposed car parking charges at Glasgow royal infirmary...
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I have not come to this amendment with an open mind; I have come with the same mind as I had last time. The committee process should be used to undo any wron...
Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab):
Lab
I have some sympathy with what Helen Eadie is trying to achieve, as I do not have any wish to see unnecessary charges imposed on people attending hospital ap...
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
I endorse what Cathy Jamieson has said. Amendment 283 deals with a management issue for health boards rather than with a transport issue. The wording is sign...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
I have noted Helen Eadie's comments and I understand her concerns. However, this is not a case of déjà vu; we are debating not last week's amendments, but th...
The Convener:
Lab
I now ask Helen Eadie to sum up and indicate whether she wishes to press or withdraw the amendment.
Helen Eadie:
Lab
The bottom line, for me and everybody else in Fife, is whether there is political will. Despite what has been said today, that is the key question. If we hav...
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 283 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForCrawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)AgainstGorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Ruth...
The Convener:
Lab
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 283 disagreed to.
Section 69—Joint boards for management, maintenance etc of certain bridges
The Convener:
Lab
We now come to amendment 273, in the name of Bruce Crawford, which is grouped with amendments 274, 275, 276 and 280, also in the name of Bruce Crawford.
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
In speaking to amendments 273 to 276 and 280, I will deal with the principle of why the Scottish National Party lodged them, while Fiona McLeod will cover th...
Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I will deal with each amendment in turn in order to explain the reasoning behind them. Amendment 273 inserts the phrase "including a concessionaire" in secti...
Mr Tosh:
Con
The case that has been made is that the Executive requires these powers to change its existing policy and its contract with the operators of the Skye bridge....
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
My point is the same as Murray Tosh's. If the minister can demonstrate that the Executive has the necessary powers to change the situation with regard to the...
Des McNulty:
Lab
Like Murray Tosh and Donald Gorrie, I am not sure that the amendments are required to achieve the end that Bruce Crawford talked about. I was interested in t...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
We believe that the amendments are completely unnecessary because current concessionary arrangements are already governed by contract—Murray Tosh, Des McNult...
The Convener:
Lab
I ask Bruce Crawford to sum up and to indicate whether he wishes to press or withdraw amendment 273.
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
I am not sure whether I can sum up or ask the minister a further question. Although she told us about the existence of the powers of termination, we were giv...