Committee
Transport and the Environment Committee, 22 Nov 2000
22 Nov 2000 · S1 · Transport and the Environment Committee
Item of business
Transport (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
In speaking to amendments 273 to 276 and 280, I will deal with the principle of why the Scottish National Party lodged them, while Fiona McLeod will cover the detail of what they are designed to achieve. The same process will apply when we come to amendments 281 and 282.
To put it bluntly, the amendments in the group are designed to give powers to the Scottish ministers—whether the present Minister for Transport or a future minister—to remove the tolls from the Skye bridge.
As we are too well aware, the tolls on the Skye bridge have been a matter of great controversy for almost a decade. Since 1995, the tolls have been resisted bravely by the whole community of Skye and by people from further afield. Indeed, a number of pending court cases will challenge the legality of the tolls—those cases are being discussed in the courts at present.
I dare anyone to suggest that those tolls have been anything other than divisive or economically damaging to the Isle of Skye. For example, this year alone the number of tourists on Skye has dropped by 20 per cent. I could go on—as could others at the table, I am sure—to catalogue the reasons why the tolls should be removed. However, I stress that the primary purpose behind the amendments is to give the Scottish ministers the power to remove those tolls at some point in the future and to provide the mechanisms that will allow compensation to be paid, if necessary and following negotiations, to the companies involved in collecting the tolls.
Perhaps the minister will like these enabling amendments, as I know she likes enabling legislation.
I hope that the issue of costs is not raised during the debate because, frankly, costs are a red herring at this stage. The amendments only give the Scottish ministers the power to remove the tolls at some point in the future, if the ministers at that time believe that that would be the right thing to do.
Abolishing the tolls has been SNP policy for many a long year now—since the tolls were put in place—although I realise that my amendments will not achieve that today. I believe that abolishing the tolls is also Liberal Democrat policy.
It is right and proper for the Transport and the Environment Committee to put in place a mechanism today that will allow a great wrong to be sorted out and, at some point in the future, the people of Skye to feel that justice has been done in relation to their long campaign to abolish the tolls. We cannot do that unless a mechanism to allow the Scottish ministers to exercise that power is contained in the bill. That is the purpose of the amendments.
I move amendment 273.
To put it bluntly, the amendments in the group are designed to give powers to the Scottish ministers—whether the present Minister for Transport or a future minister—to remove the tolls from the Skye bridge.
As we are too well aware, the tolls on the Skye bridge have been a matter of great controversy for almost a decade. Since 1995, the tolls have been resisted bravely by the whole community of Skye and by people from further afield. Indeed, a number of pending court cases will challenge the legality of the tolls—those cases are being discussed in the courts at present.
I dare anyone to suggest that those tolls have been anything other than divisive or economically damaging to the Isle of Skye. For example, this year alone the number of tourists on Skye has dropped by 20 per cent. I could go on—as could others at the table, I am sure—to catalogue the reasons why the tolls should be removed. However, I stress that the primary purpose behind the amendments is to give the Scottish ministers the power to remove those tolls at some point in the future and to provide the mechanisms that will allow compensation to be paid, if necessary and following negotiations, to the companies involved in collecting the tolls.
Perhaps the minister will like these enabling amendments, as I know she likes enabling legislation.
I hope that the issue of costs is not raised during the debate because, frankly, costs are a red herring at this stage. The amendments only give the Scottish ministers the power to remove the tolls at some point in the future, if the ministers at that time believe that that would be the right thing to do.
Abolishing the tolls has been SNP policy for many a long year now—since the tolls were put in place—although I realise that my amendments will not achieve that today. I believe that abolishing the tolls is also Liberal Democrat policy.
It is right and proper for the Transport and the Environment Committee to put in place a mechanism today that will allow a great wrong to be sorted out and, at some point in the future, the people of Skye to feel that justice has been done in relation to their long campaign to abolish the tolls. We cannot do that unless a mechanism to allow the Scottish ministers to exercise that power is contained in the bill. That is the purpose of the amendments.
I move amendment 273.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Mr Andy Kerr):
Lab
I begin the 28th meeting this year of the Transport and the Environment Committee by welcoming members, the Minister for Transport, press and public alike to...
The Minister for Transport (Sarah Boyack):
Lab
I wish to make a brief apology to the committee. Some of you may have noticed that the Executive has not lodged the amendment on redetermination orders of fo...
The Convener:
Lab
Minister, you can rest assured that we had all spotted that and we were awaiting your announcement.
After section 68
The Convener:
Lab
We come to amendment 283, in the name of Helen Eadie, which is in a group of its own.
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I will not reiterate everything that I said in moving one of my amendments last week. This is déjà vu for me. It is the third time that I have raised this is...
Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I came to this matter with an entirely open mind and did not react to the party political speech that was just made. The retail comparison is entirely flawed...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
As I said last week when Helen Eadie moved a similar amendment, I sympathise with her position. I have opposed car parking charges at Glasgow royal infirmary...
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I have not come to this amendment with an open mind; I have come with the same mind as I had last time. The committee process should be used to undo any wron...
Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab):
Lab
I have some sympathy with what Helen Eadie is trying to achieve, as I do not have any wish to see unnecessary charges imposed on people attending hospital ap...
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
I endorse what Cathy Jamieson has said. Amendment 283 deals with a management issue for health boards rather than with a transport issue. The wording is sign...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
I have noted Helen Eadie's comments and I understand her concerns. However, this is not a case of déjà vu; we are debating not last week's amendments, but th...
The Convener:
Lab
I now ask Helen Eadie to sum up and indicate whether she wishes to press or withdraw the amendment.
Helen Eadie:
Lab
The bottom line, for me and everybody else in Fife, is whether there is political will. Despite what has been said today, that is the key question. If we hav...
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 283 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForCrawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)AgainstGorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Ruth...
The Convener:
Lab
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 283 disagreed to.
Section 69—Joint boards for management, maintenance etc of certain bridges
The Convener:
Lab
We now come to amendment 273, in the name of Bruce Crawford, which is grouped with amendments 274, 275, 276 and 280, also in the name of Bruce Crawford.
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
In speaking to amendments 273 to 276 and 280, I will deal with the principle of why the Scottish National Party lodged them, while Fiona McLeod will cover th...
Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I will deal with each amendment in turn in order to explain the reasoning behind them. Amendment 273 inserts the phrase "including a concessionaire" in secti...
Mr Tosh:
Con
The case that has been made is that the Executive requires these powers to change its existing policy and its contract with the operators of the Skye bridge....
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
My point is the same as Murray Tosh's. If the minister can demonstrate that the Executive has the necessary powers to change the situation with regard to the...
Des McNulty:
Lab
Like Murray Tosh and Donald Gorrie, I am not sure that the amendments are required to achieve the end that Bruce Crawford talked about. I was interested in t...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
We believe that the amendments are completely unnecessary because current concessionary arrangements are already governed by contract—Murray Tosh, Des McNult...
The Convener:
Lab
I ask Bruce Crawford to sum up and to indicate whether he wishes to press or withdraw amendment 273.
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
I am not sure whether I can sum up or ask the minister a further question. Although she told us about the existence of the powers of termination, we were giv...