Committee
Transport and the Environment Committee, 04 Oct 2000
04 Oct 2000 · S1 · Transport and the Environment Committee
Item of business
Transport (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I do not think that there are any differences between us as far as the importance of local transport strategies is concerned. I would whole-heartedly sign up to the objectives that Robin Harper has introduced. If I was to introduce a provision in the bill to make local transport strategies a statutory requirement, it would probably look pretty much like what Robin Harper has drafted.
However, I do not think that we need statutory provision; that is where Robin Harper and I depart from each other. The key issue for the committee to consider is whether placing local transport strategies on a statutory footing would add anything to what we already have in Scotland. We have got off to a good start and I do not think that including a statutory requirement in the bill would do anything more than legislate for the sake of it.
All 32 local authorities, plus Strathclyde Passenger Transport, have submitted revised strategies, and they will all submit full strategies by the end of the year. I do not think that statutory status would deliver a difference in that time scale, or indeed in the quality of the local transport plans. I do not think that statutory status would have any substantive effect, and it would certainly not be a guarantee of quality. To me, the critical issue is how good the local transport strategies are, how important they are and to what extent innovative thinking is being plugged in at local level.
Turning to the detail of the amendment, local authorities are already engaged in the process of consulting. We have issued two rounds of guidance to give them best-practice advice on whom to consult and how to consult them. The freight community was one of the business communities that we identified as needing to be plugged into that process. Historically, its needs have not been addressed by local authorities. We have provided local authorities with guidance to raise the quality of such consultation.
It is also important to say that local transport strategies need to link in with local air quality targets through the air quality process. They also need to relate to traffic reduction issues; that is specified in the guidance. If a local authority is making a submission to the public transport fund, or wants to consider using the powers in the bill on road user charging, members will note that they must be able to justify that through their local transport strategy. We have tried to build in incentives to get local authorities not just to produce strategies but to make them meaningful, real and of high quality.
I think that we all agree on that. The difference lies in whether we believe that making it statutory would help the process. The Executive does not think that it would make a substantive difference, so that is where we disagree with Robin Harper.
However, I do not think that we need statutory provision; that is where Robin Harper and I depart from each other. The key issue for the committee to consider is whether placing local transport strategies on a statutory footing would add anything to what we already have in Scotland. We have got off to a good start and I do not think that including a statutory requirement in the bill would do anything more than legislate for the sake of it.
All 32 local authorities, plus Strathclyde Passenger Transport, have submitted revised strategies, and they will all submit full strategies by the end of the year. I do not think that statutory status would deliver a difference in that time scale, or indeed in the quality of the local transport plans. I do not think that statutory status would have any substantive effect, and it would certainly not be a guarantee of quality. To me, the critical issue is how good the local transport strategies are, how important they are and to what extent innovative thinking is being plugged in at local level.
Turning to the detail of the amendment, local authorities are already engaged in the process of consulting. We have issued two rounds of guidance to give them best-practice advice on whom to consult and how to consult them. The freight community was one of the business communities that we identified as needing to be plugged into that process. Historically, its needs have not been addressed by local authorities. We have provided local authorities with guidance to raise the quality of such consultation.
It is also important to say that local transport strategies need to link in with local air quality targets through the air quality process. They also need to relate to traffic reduction issues; that is specified in the guidance. If a local authority is making a submission to the public transport fund, or wants to consider using the powers in the bill on road user charging, members will note that they must be able to justify that through their local transport strategy. We have tried to build in incentives to get local authorities not just to produce strategies but to make them meaningful, real and of high quality.
I think that we all agree on that. The difference lies in whether we believe that making it statutory would help the process. The Executive does not think that it would make a substantive difference, so that is where we disagree with Robin Harper.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
While we are waiting for the minister, I will explain to members of the press and the public—and remind committee members—what we are about to do in this sta...
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I want to be sure that I have understood. I think you said that if a member's amendment is the first one in any given group, the member should move it at tha...
The Convener:
Lab
Yes, it is.We begin with amendment 52, which is in the name of Robin Harper and stands on its own.
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
I will explain amendment 52 and then move on to the arguments for it. I note a look of concern on the minister's face.
The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack):
Lab
I thought that there would be opening remarks from me on this stage of the bill, but it is all right—we will come back to them.
The Convener:
Lab
We wrote to the minister about her making some opening remarks on how she sees the bill unrolling. As far as I am aware we received no response, so I did not...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
During the stage 1 debate in the Parliament, I was conscious that we were dealing with this at breakneck speed. Although I gave out some information as I wen...
The Convener:
Lab
I open the meeting to questions to the minister on any issue that will help our consideration of the bill.
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
Local authorities have a fund called the car park trading account, in which money derived from car parks is ring-fenced for car parks or traffic control. Wou...
Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
Who will administer the proposed extension of the freight facilities grant to coastal and short-sea shipping and from whose budget will it be funded?
The Convener:
Lab
Are there any other questions?
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
I want to answer those two questions before I lose the thread. I would be happy to explore Bruce Crawford's point in detail. We have talked about the provisi...
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
In view of your comments on enhancing the powers of inspectors, are there any plans to extend fuel duty rebate to community buses, post buses and so on?
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
That issue is similar to concessionary fares, in that we will consider how we want to implement the powers in the bill and shift the way in which we currentl...
Donald Gorrie:
LD
Will you clarify your policy on congestion charges? I may not have fully grasped the bit where you said that motorists driving through a city would not be in...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
Through traffic in Edinburgh uses the city bypass; it does not go through the city centre and along Princes Street. I am prepared to debate that in detail wh...
Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the work that the minister has done on concessionary fares and the possibility that the scheme might be expanded in future. Would that expansion ta...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
The power is general, so it gives us that flexibility. I want to be clear and to manage people's expectations about what our short-term priorities are. The p...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
That is helpful. I wanted to be clear about that. I appreciate the difficulties—
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
I want to be clear about how I intend to use that enabling power in the short term.
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
One of the main transport issues that is raised at my surgery is transport to hospital facilities. Acute services reviews across the country will lead to maj...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
There are different ways to come at this. You have exposed one of the problems with the bus network—that it is historic. As individuals, we all fight tooth a...
The Convener:
Lab
There are no further questions, so I thank the minister for that overview of the bill. I advise members that the minister will not make such a statement at t...
Before section 1
The Convener:
Lab
I return to where we were, and invite Robin Harper to speak to amendment 52.
Robin Harper:
Green
I thank the clerks for their assistance in preparing the wording of my amendment, which applies to the beginning of the bill, before section 1. The new secti...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
I do not think that there are any differences between us as far as the importance of local transport strategies is concerned. I would whole-heartedly sign up...
Donald Gorrie:
LD
I was not a member of the committee before, and I missed a previous discussion on the matter. However, I feel that I should support Robin Harper's amendment....
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
I have some sympathy with the amendment, but I do not know that it necessarily provides us with a solution. We seem to be mixing up two matters—the size of a...
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
I agree with Kenny MacAskill, perhaps for the first time, about the need for trans-authority transport planning and about the problems of the present local a...