Committee
Local Government and Communities Committee, 25 Nov 2009
25 Nov 2009 · S3 · Local Government and Communities Committee
Item of business
Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I do and I shall, convener. Knowing what it is like to be in your place, I will be as brief as possible.First, I must commend Alex Neil, who did a lot of the groundwork on this bill. As members are aware, there has been a marked increase in the number of out-of-control dogs in Scotland. Indeed, the problem's scale is illustrated in the number of dog attacks that have been reported to police in Scotland: in 1999 to 2000, 239 such attacks were reported but by 2006-07 the number had increased 160 per cent to 623.As existing legislation has clearly proved inadequate, we need to change our approach. That is why the focus in the bill moves from the breed to the deed—in other words, the bill makes owners responsible for their dogs. As the dog wardens pointed out last week, it is not the dogs but the owners that are at fault.Although the bill has a simple aim, its technical nature has led to some misunderstandings about its provisions. No doubt members will ask me about that and, indeed, my letter to the convener, which deals with what I feel are inaccuracies about corroboration in particular. To control dogs, the bill would provide existing local authority staff who have dog-related skills—including dog wardens, community wardens and environmental health wardens—with powers to secure a significant reduction in dog attacks through preventive action. That is the key to the bill: it seeks to reduce problems through preventive and corrective measures with regard to owners. I am pleased that at last week's meeting the witnesses agreed that the bill could be an additional tool and would, as a dog warden made clear, ensure that action would be taken at a much lower level. I am confident that the bill will reduce significantly the number of attacks on individuals and animals through the use of its powers and without the need for additional staff.As so often with legislation, the problem is that existing legislation is piecemeal; in this case, it is focused primarily on particular breeds. The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 outlaws specific dog breeds but, according to evidence received from the police and other key stakeholders, it does not adequately address the behaviour of irresponsible dog owners which, in most cases, is a huge contributory factor to dogs eventually behaving in a dangerous way.Furthermore, the 1991 act does not cover dog attacks that occur on private property where the dog is permitted to be, such as a private dwelling. We usually read in the newspapers that a dog has been put down with the consent of its owner, but there is no statutory right for the dog to be put down. The bill will remove that loophole by extending the provisions in the 1991 act to make it an offence to allow a dog to be dangerously out of control anywhere—public, private with permission or private without permission. That will make the 1991 act consistent with this bill, which applies to all places.The bill repeals the Dogs Act 1871 and the Dangerous Dogs Act 1989 in so far as they apply to Scotland. Under the 1871 act, a court can make an order that a dog be kept under control or destroyed, following a complaint that it is dangerous and not kept under proper control. The 1989 act supplemented that. It extended the powers of the courts by creating the criminal offence of failing to comply with an order and enabling the disqualification of a person from owning or keeping a dog. My bill replaces the provisions in those acts with similar provisions in a single bill with significant additions that address irresponsible dog ownership. I repeat that the aim of the bill is to intervene before a dog becomes dangerous. In evidence from the National Dog Warden Association, the words "out of control" and "dangerous" were used interchangeably, but a DCN would apply only when a dog is out of control. Dangerous dogs remain dangerous dogs; a different route is taken in dealing with them. By our estimate, just over 1,000 dog control notices will be served in Scotland in the first year, giving an average figure for each local authority of 36 a year or three a month. I appreciate that the figures are broad estimates, but they are the best figures available from research.Last week's evidence made it clear that there is agreement about the worthiness of the bill, albeit that there is some disagreement over cost. Given the low numbers, those concerns are not substantive. The information on current roles and training needs was based on information that the City of Edinburgh Council supplied. I understand that the council is already in discussion with the SSPCA on training for its dog wardens, should the bill become law. Both Dundee City Council and Aberdeenshire Council confirm that the costs can be absorbed. Any downstream costs in pursuing a small number of breaches will be offset by a reduction in the number of dogs that are out of control that authorised officers have to deal with.The police will benefit from a reduction in antisocial behaviour, including between neighbours—the cabinet secretary referred to that—and from having to deal with fewer dogs that have become dangerous. The national health service will benefit from dealing with fewer patients who have been attacked by dogs. More sensible dog ownership will reduce costs across the piece. In addition, the Scottish Government agrees that significant financial savings should result from a reduction in criminal injuries compensation payments.I present this package of measures with the sole focus of ensuring that dogs in Scotland that are out of control are brought and kept under control. The powers that the bill gives to local authorities will make that possible. Scotland is at the forefront of dealing with the issue. The Northern Ireland Assembly is looking to introduce dog control legislation and is watching closely the progress of the bill.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
Item 3 is to take oral evidence on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. I welcome our first panel of witnesses, who are Kenny MacAskill MSP, Cabinet Secretar...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
We are generally supportive of the principles of the bill, which was first proposed by Alex Neil and has been taken on by Christine Grahame. It seems to us t...
The Convener:
Lab
Thank you for those brief remarks. The committee always welcomes such brevity, which allows us to get on to questions. I will open up by following on from or...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I have asked officials to set up a meeting in response to communications that we have had, particularly from Strathclyde Police and ACPOS. We seek to engage ...
The Convener:
Lab
Are any meetings happening at this time?
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I am not aware that they have started—my officials may have other information—but I am aware that the meetings are being set up, although that may come throu...
The Convener:
Lab
Can the officials give us an update? I am pressing you on this because the police were unable to come to the meeting and we have not had any evidence from CO...
Philip Lamont (Scottish Government Criminal Justice Directorate):
Strathclyde Police wrote to the cabinet secretary a few weeks ago raising the issue. A meeting is due to be set up and will take place, I hope, before the en...
Alasdair Allan (Western Isles) (SNP):
SNP
An issue that has been raised by people who largely support the bill's aims is the definition of "out of control". Does the Government have a view on that is...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We agree with the bill's definition. Section 1(3) has a two-part test for whether a dog is deemed to be out of control. It states:"a dog is out of control if...
Alasdair Allan:
SNP
The Government's reading is that the test has two parts, which must both be met.
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
It is a two-part test both parts of which must be met.
Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab):
Lab
Good morning, cabinet secretary. Do you have concerns or views about how dog control notices will be enforced?
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
The cost implications will depend largely on the use that local authorities choose to make of the system. The financial memorandum acknowledges a margin of u...
Mary Mulligan:
Lab
We will pursue the costs issue, but my question was more about the practical measures that are being requested. I understand that only one person will be nee...
Philip Lamont:
I agree with the witnesses last week who said that notices will be an effective tool in their overall armoury to deal with dogs. We hope that even just the p...
Mary Mulligan:
Lab
I agree with the hope that the power will act as a deterrent and that, if a DCN needs to be issued, it will provide a direction of travel for how to behave i...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
The bill will not establish, and we would not support, an appeal or court mechanism. We will give powers to local authorities, which will have to consider th...
Mary Mulligan:
Lab
Do you accept that certainty about the process is needed? As the ultimate sanction is destroying the dog, the measures before that point is reached must be s...
Philip Lamont:
Section 5 sets out the formal breach procedure. We hope that the bill will act as a good deterrent and that the procedures in it will not have to be used. Th...
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
The bill would require authorities to appoint authorised officers. The committee heard in evidence last week that some local authorities in Scotland do not h...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I understand that the committee has heard from local authorities. We will listen with interest to what authorities say about how they would pursue the issue....
Jim Tolson:
LD
I appreciate that you might have to enter into negotiations with local authorities. Do you accept that it is clear that, if additional resources are required...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
That is clearly the case. I know from experience in my constituency that the antisocial behaviour unit in the east Edinburgh area office has to deal with dog...
Jim Tolson:
LD
The bill provides for the creation of a national database of dog control notices, which would also have financial implications. I understand that although th...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We do not see the need for a national database, which would have a cost. Local authorities will be required to keep records, and the benefits of a national d...
Jim Tolson:
LD
There are many instances in which bodies such as local authorities and health boards collect information on the Scottish Government's behalf. My concern is t...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
To some extent, it does not matter what information is collected because there is only so much information that we can collect regarding a dangerous dog. I a...
Jim Tolson:
LD
At this stage of discussions, we are here to question the points in the bill and put them to the cabinet secretary, regardless of our politics. I appreciate ...
The Convener:
Lab
There has been some discussion about the benefits of a database of people who are not suitable to have dogs or who use them almost as offensive weapons. It w...