Committee
Justice Committee, 12 Jan 2010
12 Jan 2010 · S3 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Several factors have driven the case for reform. The committee is aware of the history, which is fully canvassed in the policy memorandum to the bill. In England, the Clementi review was undertaken, the Office of Fair Trading was involved through the super-complaint and the Legal Services Bill was introduced. In Scotland, a debate has taken place in the profession—in the Law Society of Scotland. Accompanied by other witnesses on 15 December, Ian Smart—the Law Society's president—described that debate and the process in which the Law Society is engaged. No one has suggested that that process has been other than inclusive and extensive; it has involved consultation at just about every stage.You are right to say that there is no groundswell of overwhelming acclamation and support for the bill among all 10,000 or so solicitors in Scotland, but one would not expect that, because the bill will not in all likelihood affect every solicitor. In his evidence, Ian Smart suggested that solicitors are divided into three broad groups: employees of local authorities, companies and other organisations; those who are in large firms; and those who are in small and medium-sized firms. It is plain that the main opportunities that the bill will provide—certainly financially—will probably rest with large firms, so one sees immediately that one third of the profession is most obviously in a position to benefit from the reforms.The circumstances of the Law Society's mandate to support the reforms—the overwhelming majority of members who voted supported them—were canvassed at length by Ian Smart, Michael Clancy, Lorna Jack and Katie Hay, who were the Law Society's witnesses. I read their evidence, which was convincing. One might argue that the proxy votes that were cast when the vote was carried by 801 to 132 were largely from large firms but, even if the large firms' votes were discounted, one would still be left with a substantial majority, which, as a proportion, I might be so bold as to suggest many MSPs might be happy to possess.Criticisms can be made and I am fully aware of the points from the Scottish Law Agents Society, whose representatives I have met at length. Nonetheless, there is no doubt that the procedures have resulted in a mandate. I am convinced that the bill will create invaluable opportunities, which I have no doubt that I will discuss with you and your colleagues and which mean that it is essential to support the bill and to see it become law.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Con
Item 2 also relates to the Legal Services (Scotland) Bill and is the main item of business this morning. I welcome Fergus Ewing, the Minister for Community S...
The Minister for Community Safety (Fergus Ewing):
SNP
Good morning, convener and committee members. I begin by declaring that I am a Scottish solicitor, but I am not in practice.At the heart of the bill is the r...
The Convener:
Con
Thank you for your useful introduction. I certainly do not think that we want to do anything about rights of audience until the Thomson report, which follows...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Several factors have driven the case for reform. The committee is aware of the history, which is fully canvassed in the policy memorandum to the bill. In Eng...
The Convener:
Con
Given that the Westminster Government introduced the financial services act south of the border some years ago, what would be the impact of our not passing a...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I presume that you are referring to the Legal Services Act 2007, not the financial services act.
The Convener:
Con
Sorry—yes.
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
One facet that has emerged from almost all the evidence is that not passing the bill presents some very real risks for the Scottish legal profession. If we d...
The Convener:
Con
You may think that it is strange that I am raising this issue at this stage in the proceedings, bearing it in mind that the bill has been certified by both t...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I am pleased that you have raised that issue with me. The answer is that I am satisfied. A number of issues have been raised relating to possible problems wi...
The Convener:
Con
It would be useful if you could give us a written representation on that heading.
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Thank you.
The Convener:
Con
We now turn to questions surrounding access to justice, which will be led by Stewart Maxwell.
Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Good morning, minister. You said in your opening remarks that a number of witnesses have submitted evidence to the committee in which they express concern ab...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
My response is on a number of levels. First, to ensure that access is available to those who are perhaps most vulnerable and those whose problems may involve...
The Convener:
Con
You will have that opportunity shortly.
Stewart Maxwell:
SNP
We will come on to the issue of regulation in more detail shortly.The minister mentioned that the amount of legal aid work has increased. It has been express...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Arithmetically, the argument is correct, because 600 divided by 10,000 is 6 per cent—I am no mathematician, but I think that that is correct. I said earlier ...
Stewart Maxwell:
SNP
I hear what the minister is saying, but I have a final question. Although the legal services market is not directly comparable to many other areas of life in...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I do not think so. I really do not think that the areas of law that we are talking about are likely to be of great interest to supermarkets. As the member en...
Colin McKay (Scottish Government Constitution, Courts and Law Directorate):
I was not sure whether the 600 to which Mr Maxwell referred were 600 individuals or 600 firms.
Stewart Maxwell:
SNP
I think that the minister used the figure 619.
Colin McKay:
If it was 600 firms, that would not be comparable with 10,000 individual solicitors, because firms would have more than one—
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I was quoting Tom Murray, who referred to 619 registered civil firms.
Colin McKay:
So it is not quite such a fragile—
The Convener:
Con
It could be much higher.
Colin McKay:
Absolutely.More generally, a lot of access to justice issues were looked at in a fairly major review that was undertaken a few years ago. One of the review's...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
I am intrigued by the suggestion that the bill will have advantages in social welfare law. To be frank, it seems to me that if, for example, one were to cons...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
The bill's primary purpose is not to tackle that problem, as I have already said. I hope that members agree that the provisions in the bill that directly app...
Robert Brown:
LD
I would like to avoid doubt about the motivation for the bill and its general purpose and direction. You have given a clear view of the position that would a...