Committee
Communities Committee, 27 Sep 2006
27 Sep 2006 · S2 · Communities Committee
Item of business
Planning etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Sandra White is right to say that the planning system needs to be transparent, fair and just. There is no doubt about that. My difficulty with amendments 126, 130 and 251 is that they would lock the stable door after the horse had bolted.I understand that the intention of the bill is to recreate the whole planning system. If, after that, we still argue about bad decisions being made, the bill will not have achieved the change in the planning system that we hope it will. By continually lodging such amendments, people are arguing about the wrong end of the bill. It is important to consider where the bill started and the engagement that communities will need to have in drafting local plans, which will have primacy.The difficulty that many of us—including, certainly, non-committee members—have had is that we are still thinking about the planning system as it is, rather than as it will be. If we bolt on to the new planning system problems in the existing planning system, we will not achieve the new planning system; we will just have the current planning system with a few minor amendments. For that reason, the amendments are wrong. We must encourage communities to see that they need to be involved at the start of proposals, rather than towards the end when they would have to use a backstop to try to reverse a decision that they did not want. The system will involve putting in effort at the beginning rather than at the end of a process.Mike Rumbles gave a particular example that involved his constituents. Under the bill, planning authorities will have to give reasons for rejecting or approving recommendations. That does not happen at the moment, when people hear only that a proposal has been accepted or rejected. At present, when a proposal is rejected, more reasons might be given, but reasons are certainly not given when a planning authority approves a proposal. Under the bill, an authority will have to give reasons for approval, which will show people why decisions were made against officers' recommendations, for example.Last week, we spent quite a lot of time discussing schemes of delegation. It has been suggested that some other body, such as the ministers, could improve the system by exercising the wisdom of Solomon and knowing all that was right or wrong with local decisions. It is important that decisions are taken locally. Schemes of delegation will be really important in ensuring that decisions are made locally and do not need to be constantly referred to the centre for improvement. If all those measures are in place, none of the amendments in the group will be necessary.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Whitefield):
Lab
I open the 25th meeting in 2006 of the Communities Committee. I remind all present that mobile phones should be turned off.The first and only item on the age...
Section 18—Appeals etc
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 126, in the name of Mike Rumbles, is grouped with amendments 130, 251, 201, 218, 206 and 219.I should have welcomed Mike Rumbles, Sandra White and ...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
I have brought effectively only one amendment before the committee. I aim to address what I hope is a non-partisan issue that I believe is also an issue of n...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
This is third time lucky, as it is the third time that we have turned up to debate the issue. Thankfully, we are being heard today, so I am grateful to the c...
The Convener:
Lab
I am afraid that you are not. As the member with the lead amendment in the group, Mike Rumbles has that right. Unfortunately, other members do not.
Ms White:
SNP
I will therefore continue. I am aware that the committee has been considering the bill for many weeks and, as I said, members are familiar with the third-par...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
Mike Rumbles and Sandra White have covered a lot of the arguments for a third-party right of appeal. Amendment 251 tries to keep to what I think is the basic...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I heard what Mike Rumbles had to say, but amendment 126 is too broad. In the example that he gave, he kept talking about a mistake by a planning officer. Jus...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Sandra White on lodging amendment 130 and on the work that she has done in the Parliament over the years to campaign for a limited third-party...
Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab):
Lab
Sandra White is right to say that the planning system needs to be transparent, fair and just. There is no doubt about that. My difficulty with amendments 126...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green):
Green
I will begin with the question that Mike Rumbles and Scott Barrie touched on—whether the third-party right of appeal is consistent with the bill and the prin...
Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab):
Lab
I agree with Scott Barrie's points. I have been nudging him; perhaps he was looking over my shoulder at my notes.Unfortunately, some of the people who have b...
Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD):
LD
I am interested in Sandra White's amendment 130, which is so limited that I wonder whether it is worth while. People would have to pass through a series of h...
John Home Robertson (East Lothian) (Lab):
Lab
Mike Rumbles cited the case of a neighbour who feels aggrieved when a local authority grants planning permission for a development next door. We have all hea...
Dave Petrie (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I have listened to all the arguments on both sides and I remain unconvinced about the third-party right of appeal. However, I am not saying that I will not s...
The Convener:
Lab
There are strongly held views on both sides of the argument on rights of appeal. Everyone is striving to create a planning system that is open, transparent a...
The Deputy Minister for Communities (Johann Lamont):
Lab
Amendment 126 from Mike Rumbles and amendment 130 from Sandra White seek to introduce some form of limited third-party right of appeal into the planning syst...
Mike Rumbles:
LD
We have had a fascinating and constructive debate, which has teased out misunderstandings. I am disappointed by my own inability to get across the purpose of...
John Home Robertson:
Lab
That is a threat. Laughter.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
I thought that the convener made the point well that we are all here to try to do the best for the system. That is why I am making an appeal. I feel that 99 ...
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 126 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForHarvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)AgainstBarrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (South of...
The Convener:
Lab
The result of the division is: For 1, Against 8, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 126 disagreed to.
Amendment 130 moved—Ms Sandra White.
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 130 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.