Committee
Communities Committee, 27 Sep 2006
27 Sep 2006 · S2 · Communities Committee
Item of business
Planning etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I heard what Mike Rumbles had to say, but amendment 126 is too broad. In the example that he gave, he kept talking about a mistake by a planning officer. Just because a decision goes against someone, they cannot say that a mistake has been made. To say that a mistake has been made is to make a highly subjective judgment. A mistake or an error is defined in law; it is not the same as a decision that one does not like. The example that Mike Rumbles gave related to a situation that would be covered in amendment 130, when an authority had gone against a planning officer's recommendation. It would have been better if Mike Rumbles had gone down that route. Amendment 126 is far too broad.I am always sympathetic to Donald Gorrie's amendments; I only wish that the spirit of what he wants to achieve could be put down on paper. I worry about how the provisions that amendment 251 proposes would operate. The proposed new subsection (2D) that would be inserted into section 47 of the 1997 act by amendment 251 states:"In deciding whether to hold an inquiry … the Scottish Ministers may take account of … local public opinion".It is difficult to work out how on earth that could be done. Would a referendum be used, for example? I know where Donald Gorrie is going with the provision and acknowledge that his arguments for it are commendable, but I doubt that it would be operable.The same applies to the definition that Donald Gorrie suggests should be contained in proposed new section 47(2F) of the 1997 act. A relevant body is defined as one whose"members have a substantial connection with the area affected by the proposed development".It would be easy to define "a substantial connection" in cases that were black and white, but less easy to do so in cases that were greyer. Would the provision include people who used to live in the area a decade or even 50 years previously, but who had maintained contact with it for sentimental reasons? The provision would be difficult to implement. On that basis, I cannot support amendment 251, even though I support much of the spirit behind it.I obviously support my colleague Sandra White's amendment 130. It may not be the best drafted amendment, but it is more tightly drafted than amendments 126 and 251. It is narrow, in that it would apply only in limited circumstances, and in providing that someone "may appeal", it would merely give them discretion to appeal.I want to focus on proposed new subsection (2C)(c)(i) that amendment 130 would insert into section 47 of the 1997 act, which mentions the local development plan for the area. In our discussions, the committee has spoken at length about the need for people in communities to feel secure about the local development plan. We know that many of those plans were found to be so out of date that they were almost completely irrelevant to what was happening.If people are to feel secure in the cycle of local development plans, they must be able to appeal when planning permission is granted for a development that is contrary to the local development plan. In the light of all that has been said by the committee, ministers and others about the need for the local development plan to provide people with a sense of security, surely that is a crystal clear example of a situation in which the community should have an absolute right of appeal. If a community found out that 50 houses were to be built in an area that was not scheduled for housing in the local development plan, the developer—who would have a right of appeal—could go ahead, but the people who would end up getting the development in their area would have no right of appeal.I believe that people should have a right of appeal in the narrow circumstances that Sandra White has outlined in amendment 130, which I commend to the committee.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Whitefield):
Lab
I open the 25th meeting in 2006 of the Communities Committee. I remind all present that mobile phones should be turned off.The first and only item on the age...
Section 18—Appeals etc
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 126, in the name of Mike Rumbles, is grouped with amendments 130, 251, 201, 218, 206 and 219.I should have welcomed Mike Rumbles, Sandra White and ...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
I have brought effectively only one amendment before the committee. I aim to address what I hope is a non-partisan issue that I believe is also an issue of n...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
This is third time lucky, as it is the third time that we have turned up to debate the issue. Thankfully, we are being heard today, so I am grateful to the c...
The Convener:
Lab
I am afraid that you are not. As the member with the lead amendment in the group, Mike Rumbles has that right. Unfortunately, other members do not.
Ms White:
SNP
I will therefore continue. I am aware that the committee has been considering the bill for many weeks and, as I said, members are familiar with the third-par...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
Mike Rumbles and Sandra White have covered a lot of the arguments for a third-party right of appeal. Amendment 251 tries to keep to what I think is the basic...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I heard what Mike Rumbles had to say, but amendment 126 is too broad. In the example that he gave, he kept talking about a mistake by a planning officer. Jus...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Sandra White on lodging amendment 130 and on the work that she has done in the Parliament over the years to campaign for a limited third-party...
Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab):
Lab
Sandra White is right to say that the planning system needs to be transparent, fair and just. There is no doubt about that. My difficulty with amendments 126...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green):
Green
I will begin with the question that Mike Rumbles and Scott Barrie touched on—whether the third-party right of appeal is consistent with the bill and the prin...
Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab):
Lab
I agree with Scott Barrie's points. I have been nudging him; perhaps he was looking over my shoulder at my notes.Unfortunately, some of the people who have b...
Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD):
LD
I am interested in Sandra White's amendment 130, which is so limited that I wonder whether it is worth while. People would have to pass through a series of h...
John Home Robertson (East Lothian) (Lab):
Lab
Mike Rumbles cited the case of a neighbour who feels aggrieved when a local authority grants planning permission for a development next door. We have all hea...
Dave Petrie (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I have listened to all the arguments on both sides and I remain unconvinced about the third-party right of appeal. However, I am not saying that I will not s...
The Convener:
Lab
There are strongly held views on both sides of the argument on rights of appeal. Everyone is striving to create a planning system that is open, transparent a...
The Deputy Minister for Communities (Johann Lamont):
Lab
Amendment 126 from Mike Rumbles and amendment 130 from Sandra White seek to introduce some form of limited third-party right of appeal into the planning syst...
Mike Rumbles:
LD
We have had a fascinating and constructive debate, which has teased out misunderstandings. I am disappointed by my own inability to get across the purpose of...
John Home Robertson:
Lab
That is a threat. Laughter.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
I thought that the convener made the point well that we are all here to try to do the best for the system. That is why I am making an appeal. I feel that 99 ...
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 126 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForHarvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)AgainstBarrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (South of...
The Convener:
Lab
The result of the division is: For 1, Against 8, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 126 disagreed to.
Amendment 130 moved—Ms Sandra White.
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 130 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.