Committee
Justice 2 Committee, 27 Nov 2002
27 Nov 2002 · S1 · Justice 2 Committee
Item of business
Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I support the position that has been outlined by the Minister for Justice. I cannot support the amendments that have been lodged by my colleague Scott Barrie. Bill Aitken rightly pointed out that we have discussed and debated the issue in some detail and I certainly subscribe to the view that it would be an act of lunacy for us, as legislators, to criminalise responsible, loving, law-abiding citizens and parents. The position was outlined by the Minister for Justice, who was absolutely spot on when he said that, as regards compliance and enforcement, the position advocated by my friend and colleague Scott Barrie is completely unworkable. As a society, we all want a situation where none of our children is ever hurt or assaulted, but I genuinely believe that what Scott Barrie proposes is not the way forward. Positive parenting and a process of education are absolutely essential. Scott Barrie's proposal will do nothing to change attitudes. I subscribe to the view that the current law is sufficiently robust to protect children. I certainly do not endorse the view expressed in the letters that the committee received this morning, one from Edinburgh and one from Ayrshire. I flippantly describe such people as the wooden-spoon fraternity. However, I find it worrying that people not only commit that logic and reasoning to paper, but actually subject their children to correction by use of an implement. In all the evidence and letters that came pouring into the committee, the wooden spoon appeared with alarming frequency. I certainly do not associate myself with the view that the hand is associated with warmth and love and the implement with correction. How do those people hold the implement with which they are administering punishment or correction? We need attitudinal change and those who commit such views to paper certainly need assistance and direction in positive parenting. I speak as the parent of three—no, two—young children. Laughter.
In the same item of business
Section 43—Physical punishment of children
The Convener:
Lab
I welcome Jim Wallace and the Executive officials.Amendment 121 is grouped with amendments 8, 9, 10, 122 and 45. If amendment 121 is agreed to, I cannot call...
Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab):
Lab
Amendments 121 and 122 seek to remove the defence of "reasonable parental chastisement" that is set out in section 10 of the Children and Young Persons (Scot...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
I welcome the opportunity to come before the committee to discuss this topic, which I seem to have discussed with it on a number of occasions. Fate has some ...
The Convener:
Lab
We were saying the same thing only this morning.
Mr Wallace:
It is important that I set out the policy objectives of section 43 at the beginning, because there has been much discussion on the issue. Some people support...
Bill Aitken:
Con
We are going over old ground to some extent, as the committee has debated this matter at considerable length and in great depth. Scott Barrie has been entire...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I commend Scott Barrie for lodging amendment 121. I have not the slightest difficulty in supporting his objectives. In previous discussions, committee member...
Mr Morrison:
Lab
I support the position that has been outlined by the Minister for Justice. I cannot support the amendments that have been lodged by my colleague Scott Barrie...
The Convener:
Lab
Are you sure?
Mr Morrison:
Lab
The Child Support Agency has not contacted me. One of my children is three years of age, which is what I intended to say, and the other is 18 months. I see t...
George Lyon:
LD
I, too, support the minister and welcome his response to the committee's report. He took on board the concerns and addressed them. I respect where Scott Barr...
Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I would love to be a fly on the wall when Alasdair Morrison gets home. Most of the arguments have been rehearsed. I cannot support Scott Barrie's amendments ...
The Convener:
Lab
The minister is not bound to answer that question.
Mr Wallace:
Thank you. I will respond to one or two of the points that have been made. We have had a good debate on what we all recognise is a difficult subject. We have...
The Convener:
Lab
Thank you, minister. I am glad that you acknowledged that some thought had gone into the committee's stage 1 report. We spent a considerable amount of time c...
Scott Barrie:
Lab
I echo the first point that the convener made. I do not think that members of the committee are 100 miles apart on the issue, which the popular press has som...
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 121 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForBarrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)AgainstAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (...
The Convener:
Lab
Now Scott Barrie knows how Bill Aitken usually feels. The result of the division is: For 1, Against 5, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 121 disagreed to.
Amendments 8 to 10 moved—Mr Jim Wallace—and agreed to.
Amendment 122 not moved.
Amendment 45 moved—Bill Aitken.
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 45 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)AgainstBarrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (...