Committee
Justice 2 Committee, 27 Nov 2002
27 Nov 2002 · S1 · Justice 2 Committee
Item of business
Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Amendments 121 and 122 seek to remove the defence of "reasonable parental chastisement" that is set out in section 10 of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937. That defence can be used as an excuse when a parent or someone with parental responsibilities has administered discipline to a child that might or might not have gone further than either they had intended or that a reasonable person might have assumed to have been appropriate.When we took evidence on section 43, we found two diametrically opposed points of view. A number of organisations and individuals believed that a total ban on hitting children would be the best way of protecting children and ensuring that physical punishment did not reach an unacceptable level. However, other organisations and individuals felt that such a step was an unwarranted interference in parental responsibility and that parents should be allowed to punish their children as they see fit. It is fair to say that the Executive's proposals, as contained in section 43 and in the amendments it has lodged, took a middle way and tried to reach a consensus on what would or would not be acceptable.The committee took different views on the matter. However, I dissented from its final view; as members know, I favour a total ban on the physical punishment of children because that would send a clear message about what is acceptable to parents and people with parental responsibilities and would be the easiest way of ensuring that children are protected. Amendments 121 and 122 simply put in the legislation what I have always felt should be the case.Committee members who feel that the existing law is perfectly adequate in this respect are wrong, because there is substantial doubt about what constitutes acceptable parental chastisement. It is up to the police and then the courts to decide whether someone who has physically punished a child has done so within the bounds of "reasonable parental chastisement". That phrase from the 1937 act does not clarify the legal position adequately. When we were discussing other sections of the bill yesterday, committee members were rightly exercised by the possibility that we might have agreed to something that was not very clear and had not been properly thought through. I argue that the existing law on the physical punishment of children is not clear. In any case, we should revisit legislation that was passed in 1937. Amendments 121 and 122 make abundantly clear what we are trying to do and what constitutes acceptable.I move amendment 121.
In the same item of business
Section 43—Physical punishment of children
The Convener:
Lab
I welcome Jim Wallace and the Executive officials.Amendment 121 is grouped with amendments 8, 9, 10, 122 and 45. If amendment 121 is agreed to, I cannot call...
Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab):
Lab
Amendments 121 and 122 seek to remove the defence of "reasonable parental chastisement" that is set out in section 10 of the Children and Young Persons (Scot...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
I welcome the opportunity to come before the committee to discuss this topic, which I seem to have discussed with it on a number of occasions. Fate has some ...
The Convener:
Lab
We were saying the same thing only this morning.
Mr Wallace:
It is important that I set out the policy objectives of section 43 at the beginning, because there has been much discussion on the issue. Some people support...
Bill Aitken:
Con
We are going over old ground to some extent, as the committee has debated this matter at considerable length and in great depth. Scott Barrie has been entire...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I commend Scott Barrie for lodging amendment 121. I have not the slightest difficulty in supporting his objectives. In previous discussions, committee member...
Mr Morrison:
Lab
I support the position that has been outlined by the Minister for Justice. I cannot support the amendments that have been lodged by my colleague Scott Barrie...
The Convener:
Lab
Are you sure?
Mr Morrison:
Lab
The Child Support Agency has not contacted me. One of my children is three years of age, which is what I intended to say, and the other is 18 months. I see t...
George Lyon:
LD
I, too, support the minister and welcome his response to the committee's report. He took on board the concerns and addressed them. I respect where Scott Barr...
Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I would love to be a fly on the wall when Alasdair Morrison gets home. Most of the arguments have been rehearsed. I cannot support Scott Barrie's amendments ...
The Convener:
Lab
The minister is not bound to answer that question.
Mr Wallace:
Thank you. I will respond to one or two of the points that have been made. We have had a good debate on what we all recognise is a difficult subject. We have...
The Convener:
Lab
Thank you, minister. I am glad that you acknowledged that some thought had gone into the committee's stage 1 report. We spent a considerable amount of time c...
Scott Barrie:
Lab
I echo the first point that the convener made. I do not think that members of the committee are 100 miles apart on the issue, which the popular press has som...
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 121 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForBarrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)AgainstAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (...
The Convener:
Lab
Now Scott Barrie knows how Bill Aitken usually feels. The result of the division is: For 1, Against 5, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 121 disagreed to.
Amendments 8 to 10 moved—Mr Jim Wallace—and agreed to.
Amendment 122 not moved.
Amendment 45 moved—Bill Aitken.
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 45 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)AgainstBarrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (...