Committee
Justice 2 Committee, 25 Sep 2002
25 Sep 2002 · S1 · Justice 2 Committee
Item of business
Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
When I first heard what the minister said, I was sympathetic towards it. However, having reread the bill, I do not think that his line of argument is correct. The bill states:"The owner of land in respect of which access rights are exercisable shall not, for the purpose … of preventing or deterring … carry out any agricultural or other operation on the land".That raises two concerns. First, Murdo Fraser's argument still holds. Secondly, there seems to be the potential for legal argument about whether prevention of the exercise of access rights is the main purpose of what the landowner does. As drafted, section 14(1) is not helpful and needs to be reconsidered.As the minister said, the intention of section 14(1) was to allow consideration of whether the exercise of access rights was being prevented on purpose or whether it was being prevented unintentionally, by accident. The aim of section 14(1) was to allow local authorities—which we hope will act responsibly—to remove an obstacle to allow the exercise of access rights. That is the thrust of section 14(1). It is also clear elsewhere in the bill that—just as Stewart Stevenson said—we have a balance between farmers carrying out their business and responsible access rights. Against that backdrop, there is nothing wrong with amendment 262.To be honest, because of the way in which section 14(1) has been drafted, we must reconsider it. We must thank Murdo Fraser for pointing that out. We must consider how we can better draft section 14(1) so that, if there is an obstruction—whether its main purpose is to obstruct access or whether that is an unintentional effect—the local authorities have the right to remove it. That is what I would like.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Pauline McNeill):
Lab
Good morning and welcome to the 32nd meeting this year of the Justice 2 Committee. The only item on the agenda today is day 6 of our stage 2 consideration of...
Section 14—Prohibition signs, obstructions, dangerous impediments etc
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 124 is grouped with amendments 262, 173, 236, 91, 282, 125, 193, 275 and 57. If amendment 124 is agreed to, I shall not call amendment 262. If amen...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Amendment 124 seeks to ensure that an owner of land must respect his or her obligations under section 3 to use, manage and conduct ownership of the land in a...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):
Lab
Amendment 262 would amend section 14, page 10, line 4. As section 14 stands, it will allow for remedies to actions that have the explicit purpose of impeding...
The Convener:
Lab
I call Stewart Stevenson to speak to amendments 173, 236, 91, 282, 275 and to any other amendments in the group.
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
I draw members' attention to the fact that, when amendment 173 was originally lodged, it used the phrase "dump materials", but it has now been changed to rea...
The Convener:
Lab
Murdo Fraser will speak to amendment 125, and to any other amendments in the group.
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
Amendment 125 would delete section 14(1)(e), so removing the wording"take any other action similar to any in paragraphs (a) to (d) above."The obligations on ...
The Convener:
Lab
The minister will speak to amendment 193 and to any other amendment in the group.
The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):
Lab
On several occasions during the past couple of weeks, I have referred to the importance of section 14 in securing the creation of the responsible right of ac...
Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West):
There are far too many notices littering the countryside telling people "No Trespassing", "No Walking", "No Picnicking" or "No Fishing". Of course, there may...
George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):
LD
I would like to speak to amendments 262, 173, 236, 91 and 282. As the minister said, the test under section 14(1) is whether any actions taken by the landown...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I will pick up a few points from the debate. George Lyon and the minister talked about amendment 173. I remind my colleagues that the three paragraphs that a...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
The minister nods, so I expect to hear about that in due course.I recognise the fact that, to some extent, the conjunction of section 14(1)(b),"put up any fe...
Mr Alasdair Morrison (Western Isles) (Lab):
Lab
I shall say a few words on amendment 57 and reinforce what Dennis Canavan said about the way in which, during the foot-and-mouth disease crisis, landowners s...
Dr Jackson:
Lab
When I first heard what the minister said, I was sympathetic towards it. However, having reread the bill, I do not think that his line of argument is correct...
The Convener:
Lab
I will allow the minister to reply on some of those points. Will the minister give us an insight into how he envisages section 14(1) operating? What evidence...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
You make an important point. The debate is getting quite complex because of yesterday's deletion of section 11. I say to Sylvia Jackson that, under section 1...
Dennis Canavan:
Can we have an assurance that, at stage 3, the Executive will not try to reinsert the reference to angling that was deleted from section 9 by the committee y...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
For the reasons that I gave yesterday and again today, I cannot give that assurance. The deletion of section 9(2) will make us think about what happens at st...
The Convener:
Lab
Is Stewart Stevenson happy that his issues have been dealt with?
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
Yes.
George Lyon:
LD
Sylvia Jackson makes her argument well. However, if we go down the road that she suggests in amendment 262, the words"is likely to have the effect"could be i...
The Convener:
Lab
We should go back to the question of the operation of the law. If Stewart Stevenson's amendment 173, which deals with the extension of a curtilage to cover a...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Yes—in effect. That is what we propose. We will discuss Dennis Canavan's amendments to section 14—amendments 58, 59 and 60—later. Those amendments would impo...
The Convener:
Lab
If you are not willing to accept the need to include in the bill the further detail that is set out in amendment 173—for example, the requirement that a land...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
The issue is dealt with under section 14(2)—it is implicit in that part of the bill. In issuing guidance to local authorities and others—depending on whether...
George Lyon:
LD
Amendment 262 is fundamental. Section 14(1) describes the test—in other words, what the local authority will take action on or go to court on. The test that ...
Dr Jackson:
Lab
I must come in at this point. First, as Murdo Fraser rightly said, section 14 is not well drafted. That is what has led George Lyon to make those assertions,...