Committee
Justice 2 Committee, 24 Sep 2002
24 Sep 2002 · S1 · Justice 2 Committee
Item of business
Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I will move amendment 243 for the sake of good order, rather than because I am entirely persuaded by it. The amendment would remove the provision whereby conduct excluded from access rights includes"being on or crossing land and doing anything … which is not an offence but for which a sanction is provided by or under an enactment".It would be useful if the Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development would advise the committee—as we assess whether we wish to proceed with the amendment—whether any such sanction is provided for something that is not an offence under another enactment. I have to confess that I am not aware of any examples. I will comment on amendments 55 and 56 in Dennis Canavan's absence. Amendment 55 would remove golf courses from the access exclusions. Golf courses provide a resource that is widely used by the community for recreational purposes. In deleting their exclusion, we are more likely to retain the status quo than we would be by saying that the access rights that are secured under the bill will not apply when the land is a golf course. On that basis—and as members will have noted from the fact that I am named as a supporter on the marshalled list—I strongly support amendment 55. Similarly, amendment 56 would remove angling from the list of exclusions. The committee has already debated the removal of the whole of section 9(2), which I support, but, notwithstanding that, we wish to delete the word "angling" from that subsection. I remember many happy days before the law changed, fishing for brown trout with my father. I deeply regret the legislation change that now prevents that. There is no need to deny people the access rights that are necessary for them to fish in rivers species that are not otherwise protected.Amendments 161 to 167 are in my name, and delete lines running from subsection (2)(d) to (2)(j). If we conclude that we do not wish to delete the entire subsection, we have the opportunity to consider its individual paragraphs. I recognise that there may be some concerns about deleting paragraph (e), at line 12, which refers to"damaging the land or anything on or in it".Deleting those words might appear to give sanction to what they describe. Of course, the intention behind the amendment is to show that it is for the access code to make it clear that damaging the land or anything on or in it is not within the exercise of responsible access. Nonetheless, I will listen to the arguments on that. As I said, the deletion of section 9(2) is by far the best way of proceeding, but we have the opportunity to consider the individual provisions of the subsection.I move amendment 243.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
Item 1 is the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill. This is the fifth stage 2 meeting on the bill. Members have the usual papers in front of them. I propose that we f...
Mr Hamilton:
SNP
The committee should doubtless do that. Unfortunately, I have a clash with the Local Government Committee at 2 o'clock. I may have to flit between the two me...
The Convener:
Lab
Are you happy that we stick to those general timings?
Mr Hamilton:
SNP
Yes.
Mr Morrison:
Lab
I am in a similar situation to Duncan Hamilton's, but I am committed to attending this committee.
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
Similarly, I have advised the convener of the Rural Development Committee that I shall be at this committee as long as is necessary.
Bill Aitken:
Con
We will still be quorate.
The Convener:
Lab
I thank you for that. I appreciate that members have lots of other business and that they are coming to this meeting as an extra. I hope that we will finish ...
Section 9—Conduct excluded from access rights
The Convener:
Lab
We are dealing with section 9. We still do not have Dennis Canavan. Unfortunately, he did not appreciate that we were starting at 11 o'clock. Does someone el...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I will move it.
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 243 is grouped with amendments 30, 155, 55, 31, 139, 157, 32, 56, 76, 281, 77, 161, 162, 163, 245, 164, 165, 246, 166, 247, 167, 98, 98A and 79. Am...
Mr Morrison:
Lab
Could you run through that again, convener? Laughter.
The Convener:
Lab
There is more to come, in fact. However, if members are happy to be guided by me during our consideration, I am happy to forgo reading out the whole text in ...
Members indicated agreement.
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I will move amendment 243 for the sake of good order, rather than because I am entirely persuaded by it. The amendment would remove the provision whereby con...
The Convener:
Lab
I call Scott Barrie to speak to amendment 30 and the other amendments in the group.
Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab):
Lab
I am not quite sure of the procedure, convener, because I do not propose to move amendment 30. I believe that amendment 155, which is in your name, is better...
The Convener:
Lab
You can speak to amendment 30 and then choose not to move it later.
Scott Barrie:
Lab
As I said, amendment 155 is better than amendment 30. In our stage 1 report, we argued that it is better for matters to be dealt with in the code rather than...
The Convener:
Lab
Scott Barrie mentioned amendment 155, which takes us back to the committee's discussion on the first day of stage 2 about how to resolve the question of comm...
Bill Aitken:
Con
Amendment 139 highlights a basic difference between me and other committee members about whether the code is likely to be effective in deterring activities t...
The Convener:
Lab
I will call the amendments later.
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
On a point of order, convener. A question of vires arises in relation to Bill Aitken's amendment 139. The amendment includes the words "or being above land",...
The Convener:
Lab
I will allow you to make that point in the debate, once all the amendments have been dealt with.
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
The point is a procedural matter; it is not a debating point. It would be useful to get a ruling on it before we cause problems by incorporating a provision ...
Bill Aitken:
Con
Perhaps Stewart Stevenson could use his undoubted expertise in these matters to let us know whether the height at which a kite or mechanised toy aeroplane mi...
The Convener:
Lab
I do not propose to have a debate about the matter. Stewart Stevenson's point is not a point of order. If the provision is ultra vires, that is a matter for ...
The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):
Lab
I am sorry, convener. I was debating paragliding with my officials in the context of the point that was being made.Amendment 32, which is the critical amendm...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I apologise for my late arrival, convener. I was at the Public Petitions Committee meeting, which overran considerably. Could I have a minute to catch my bre...