Committee
Justice 2 Committee, 14 Nov 2001
14 Nov 2001 · S1 · Justice 2 Committee
Item of business
Subordinate Legislation
Draft Small Claims (Scotland) Amendment Order 2001<br />Draft Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1971 (Privative Jurisdiction and Summary Cause) Order 2001
The key concerns that came into play at the time that the orders were previously laid before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee were concerns about the scale of the solicitors' fees that would apply in summary cause cases and about the table of recoverable expenses. Progress has been made since then and that leads us to believe that the time is right to return to the orders. That position is also summarised in the Law Society of Scotland's letter to the committee. It addresses those two points. First, the Law Society sets out that:"it is important to add however that in our view it will be essential that successful parties in Summary Cause litigation are not penalised by being unable to recover the cost of bringing the litigation from the unsuccessful party."To that end, we will be making full representations on the summary cause fees table to the Lord President's advisory committee on fees, prior to our meeting with that committee on 17 December. Secondly, the society says that it now feels able to support the changes. In paragraph 2, it says:"Following a comprehensive review of the Summary Cause Rules by the Sheriff Court Rules Council, we are now satisfied that our concerns in relation to Summary Cause procedure have been addressed."The key point is that the scale of fees must follow the change to the jurisdiction limits that are proposed in the privative jurisdiction and summary cause order. In its letter, the Law Society of Scotland is expressing confidence that that will happen. I have given a commitment that the new orders will not come into force until the new rules and the scale of fees that flows from them come into force.Those were the two key concerns when the orders were previously laid. Those have now been addressed, which is why we are returning to the orders and laying them again.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
Our first agenda item deals with two draft orders. I refer members to the note by the clerk, J2/01/31/2, which sets out the background and procedure. I advis...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Iain Gray):
Lab
I will speak about the two orders together, as they are very much a package. The purpose of the orders is to increase the different financial limits, known a...
That the Justice 2 Committee recommends that the draft Small Claims (Scotland) Amendment Order 2001 be approved.
That the Justice 2 Committee recommends that the draft Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1971 (Privative Jurisdiction and Summary Cause) Order 2001 be approved.
The Convener:
Lab
Before we begin, members should bear in mind that we are involved in a debate and not in an evidence-taking session. The background note that members have on...
Iain Gray:
Lab
Is the convener looking for a response? I am not sure whether I can respond to your question now, or whether you want me to sum up at the end of the debate. ...
The Convener:
Lab
If you could.
Iain Gray:
Lab
The key concerns that came into play at the time that the orders were previously laid before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee were concerns about the s...
Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP):
SNP
I realise that this is supposed to be a debate, but in some ways we are asking questions of the minister. I was interested in the issue that he raised about ...
Iain Gray:
Lab
On the last point, I am not aware of that sum of money having been earmarked for personal injury claims and handed back. I think the point made in the petiti...
Mrs Ewing:
SNP
What are the implications for the legal aid budget?
Iain Gray:
Lab
We have considered that and it seems to us that the impact on the legal aid budget will not be so great that it cannot be dealt with within the current budge...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Personal injury claims are the nub of the matter. The minister has alleviated some of the concerns. I would be interested if the minister, at some juncture, ...
Iain Gray:
Lab
I will start with the final point and go backwards. No principle is being diluted, because what we are discussing is a change to the jurisdiction limits, whi...
The Convener:
Lab
I am sorry to interrupt you, but I want to stop you on that point and ask a question about the numbers that you have given us. That information is useful, bu...
Iain Gray:
Lab
There are two different points. I was responding to Mr Aitken's point about the role of the Court of Session in developing the law of Scotland by taking its ...
Bill Aitken:
Con
I want to return to the issue of personal injury claims so that I can be satisfied that the measure will not in any way be prejudicial to those. A claim for ...
Iain Gray:
Lab
Yes.
Bill Aitken:
Con
Legal aid would be available to cover the legal expenses that were claimable. What are you attempting to do here? Are you attempting to set up a situation si...
Iain Gray:
Lab
Bill Aitken is correct to say that legal aid would be available. The scale of expenses that would apply would be the summary cause scale. As I said, the lett...
Bill Aitken:
Con
But, in England and Wales, personal injury claims have been removed from the equation, in a simplified procedure.
Iain Gray:
Lab
Yes, in England and Wales, personal injury claims have been removed from the small claims procedure and we propose to do the same. That will allow people to ...
Bill Aitken:
Con
Thank you—that is very helpful.
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
It is probably worth while my saying at this stage that I am minded to oppose these orders, although I am prepared to be persuaded by the debate and the mini...
Iain Gray:
Lab
I, too, find the comments in the GMB petition on the lack of consultation rather puzzling. As the convener made clear, the consultation process took place so...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
In the light of the difficulty that appears to have arisen on consultation, is the minister prepared to undertake on his part or that of his Executive collea...
Iain Gray:
Lab
I am happy to take that point. We are always prepared to consider the effectiveness of our consultation. I repeat that the delay that was caused by the passi...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I accept the minister's point too.
Mrs Ewing:
SNP
I will move on from consultation. Minister, you said en passant to Bill Aitken that if the orders were passed, they would be monitored over, say, the next 12...
Iain Gray:
Lab
If the changes are made, we will need to monitor their effect on the distribution of civil business in the sheriff court and between the sheriff court and th...