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Committee

Justice 1 Committee, 02 Nov 2005

02 Nov 2005 · S2 · Justice 1 Committee
Item of business
Family Law (Scotland) Bill: <br />Stage 2
I disagree with much of what Bruce McFee said. I do not think that such a proposal gives out the wrong signals. After all, every committee member has indicated the importance of marriage. I sometimes think that if couples were required to know each other for two years before they could get married we might not have to deal with some of these problems.I agree entirely with Brian Adam's important point that divorce should be the last resort. I do not have Fergus Ewing's extensive experience in consistorial actions; when I practised, however, divorces were heard in the Court of Session and the witnesses and the pursuer had to appear. The divorce clients on whose behalf I appeared saw that step very much as a last resort and were in no doubt about its gravity. No matter whether it was on the ground of non-cohabitation for two years with consent, non-cohabitation for five years without consent, adultery or unreasonable behaviour, divorce was very much seen as a last resort.Most couples enter into marriage with the intention that it should last. However, I am sad to say that, as people know from personal experience or from friends who have gone through the trauma of divorce, when a marriage breaks down, the parties involved go through a difficult and traumatic time.The proposals in section 10 are worth supporting. We should remind ourselves that the sole ground for divorce is the irretrievable breakdown of marriage and that the court must be satisfied that the marriage has broken down irretrievably. The bill proposes that evidence of that is that the parties have not cohabited for one year and that they both consent to the divorce.Stewart Stevenson said that a year is a relatively short period of time and that parties might not know whether they want to divorce so there might be a possibility of reconciliation. The practical application of that is that if there is a doubt and one of the partners thinks that there is a possibility of reconciliation, that ground for divorce is not open to them; it applies only when both parties have agreed to divorce. We are talking about two grown-up people who agree that their marriage has irretrievably broken down, who have not lived together for a year and who want to get on with their lives. I have no doubt that the decision whether to divorce will have been a great source of grief and anxiety, but we are talking about people who have consented to a divorce, having been separated for a year. One does not always know, but their marriage might have broken down even before they separated formally.I have read the committee's stage 1 report. Margaret Mitchell referred to the evidence from the United Reformed Church that five years was a long time for there to be uncertainty for the children. The Executive's policy memorandum suggested that research indicated that such a period of disruption could be unsettling and damaging for children, who could suffer from low self-esteem. It is not just a question of trying to shorten the period of disruption, uncertainty and acrimony, although that is important in itself; the bill does nothing that removes the ability to prove irretrievable breakdown of marriage by virtue of unreasonable behaviour or adultery. My concern—it is not fanciful, because I believe that this happens—is that if a person wants a divorce and is going to have to wait longer to get it, they might well decide to cite adultery or unreasonable behaviour. That is where the acrimony would arise. In a divorce that might otherwise have proceeded consensually, we might find that one party decides that if they have to wait two years they will use a specific incident of the other being unfaithful and blow it up.In the debate on amendment 14, mention was made of violent abuse, which would unquestionably be a ground for divorce. I acted in enough cases in the short period of time when I practised family law to know that unreasonable behaviour is not about real physical abuse. Very often when a divorce became acrimonious, a petty little incident of words spoken in anger, which were shrugged off in half an hour, was turned into a major conflict. If there were disputes about money, it became a question of which partner could paint the other blacker. People would dredge up all sorts of things from their memories as one tried to make the other sound worse than they were.I am concerned that in the longer period where one party is not willing to agree to a divorce, we would find that parties would cite unreasonable behaviour, because there is no time limit for that and people can get a divorce more quickly. I am not saying that there is never acrimony, but I am concerned about acrimony spilling out in cases that might otherwise have proceeded more consensually because one party is determined to get a divorce and will magnify any incident that happened during the marriage to establish unreasonable behaviour. If children are involved, a divorce that might have proceeded smoothly might become very difficult for them. We should not lose sight of that.I do not believe that we should undermine or downplay the importance of marriage—everyone who has spoken has said how important it is—but we must consider children's interests. However, in terms of children's interests, if two adult people in a marriage decide that they have tried but failed and now want to move on, making them wait a longer time to do so will not necessarily add to the well-being of society or to that of their children.

In the same item of business

The Convener: Lab
Item 2 is the Family Law (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome once again Hugh Henry, the Deputy Minister for Justice, and his legal team: Carol Duncan, Anne...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry): Lab
I am entirely in your hands, convener. I am content to listen to what other members have to say.
The Convener: Lab
Okay. I will take two or three comments, and then allow you the final say.
Mr Bruce McFee (West of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
As members know, I spoke on the matter at length previously. It is regrettable that the advice was the way it was; we do not want to hammer home the point an...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): SNP
I did not participate in the first stage 2 meeting, but I remain concerned about cases in which, through inadvertence, it transpires that a marriage that too...
Mr Wallace: LD
It is regrettable that we are in this position. However, I note that section 28 relates to the validity of marriages contracted abroad. Given that the number...
The Convener: Lab
I would support that approach. In fact, I was going to conclude my remarks by saying that I think that the Executive ought to remain open to that possibility...
Hugh Henry: Lab
I regret that I inadvertently misled the committee about the impact of the abolition of marriage by cohabitation with habit and repute on couples who marry a...
The Convener: Lab
I am aware that you described the Executive's position at the previous meeting. We do not seek to argue against the Executive—well, perhaps some of us do—but...
Hugh Henry: Lab
If we decide that it would not be appropriate to lodge an amendment and another member wishes to do so, we would support the right of that member to have the...
The Convener: Lab
Before we begin consideration of stage 2 of the Family Law (Scotland) Bill, I welcome to the committee several visiting members: Ken Macintosh, Brian Adam an...
Before section 10
The Convener: Lab
Amendment 14, in the name of Margaret Mitchell, is in a group on its own.
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con): Con
Good morning, minister. The purpose of amendment 14 is to make explicit the possibility and encouragement of reconciliation in the proposals that are contain...
Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): Lab
Good morning, minister. I fully accept the intention behind Margaret Mitchell's amendment 14. We all want to support marriage; we want, in particular, to sup...
Stewart Stevenson: SNP
I, too, have sympathy for what Margaret Mitchell seeks to achieve through amendment 14, but I also have difficulty with the means by which she has expressed ...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): SNP
These are highly sensitive matters, and I am sure that we all respect the opinions of those with whom we may not necessarily agree. I am inclined to support ...
Mr McFee: SNP
I have a great deal of sympathy with Margaret Mitchell's attempt to introduce some sanity into a process that sometimes loses its footing. I have swithered o...
Marlyn Glen (North East Scotland) (Lab): Lab
I start by reminding the committee of the lengths to which we have gone to take formal and informal evidence, from many organisations and at many levels, on ...
Mr Wallace: LD
I fully understand and have some sympathy with the reasoning that underlies amendment 14. However, Bruce McFee put his finger on it when he said there is a d...
The Convener: Lab
I am grateful to Margaret Mitchell for lodging amendment 14, because we should debate the matter. I know that such a system was tried in England and Wales. M...
Hugh Henry: Lab
I support many of the comments that have been made and the legitimate aspiration of trying to get people to make a marriage work. A marriage is a serious und...
Margaret Mitchell: Con
This has been an excellent debate. Amendment 14 has been thoroughly discussed and some good points have been raised. Jim Wallace's point was that if a couple...
The Convener: Lab
The question is, that amendment 14 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener: Lab
There will be a division.
ForMcFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)AgainstGlen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgo...
The Convener: Lab
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 4, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 14 disagreed to.
Section 10—Divorce: reduction in separation periods