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Committee

Justice 1 Committee, 17 Dec 2002

17 Dec 2002 · S1 · Justice 1 Committee
Item of business
Title Conditions (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The Lord Advocate: Watch on SPTV
There has been anxiety about the definition of sheltered housing and a worry that the definition might exclude what is termed "retirement housing". The issue was raised before the Executive issued its consultation paper in May 2001. That paper made clear that the term "sheltered housing" includes retirement complexes. The Deputy First Minister has made the same point in statements to Parliament. The committee considered the point, and concluded in its stage 1 report that it was not necessary to change the definition.In view of the continuing interest in the matter, it might be worth my taking a moment to examine the definition, which reads:"‘sheltered housing development' means a group of dwelling-houses which, having regard to their design, size and other features, are particularly suitable for occupation by elderly people (or by people who are disabled or infirm or in some other way vulnerable) and which, for the purposes of such occupation, are provided with facilities substantially different from those of ordinary dwelling-houses."That definition concentrates on the characteristics of the housing, rather than on the characteristics of owners. In so far as the definition touches on owners, it refers to them in precise terms—as the elderly and the disabled. Reference to "the retired" is much more ambiguous. What is meant by "the retired"? I presume that they are people who no longer work. Many people might be partially retired or have part-time work. If they are disabled, they might not be capable of full-time employment. What about those who give up work for a period but who subsequently get a job? What about a married couple, only one of whom has stopped working? Retirement housing could not be defined as housing that is suitable for retired people, because that definition does not describe the physical properties of the accommodation. The definition of sheltered housing emphasises special facilities and features.A retirement complex would not fit into that particular definition and it is not entirely clear whether there are additional characteristics of retirement housing that are not included in the definition. If there are no additional features—I submit that there are not—amending the bill will not make any legal difference. Indeed, my worry is that if we were to amend the bill to include "retirement housing", a court would start looking for its own definition and mischief might then occur. Accordingly, I submit that the definition is sufficient.I will make one more point. I understand that elderly people who are in sheltered housing sometimes feel that the term is seen as being in some way demeaning. Examination of that term might provide a way forward. However, as far as the definition is concerned, I would have thought that including in the bill some reference to retirement housing would cause real problems.

In the same item of business

The Convener: SNP
Item 3 is the continuation of our stage 2 consideration of the Title Conditions (Scotland) Bill. I welcome to the committee Colin Boyd QC, who is here in pla...
Section 50—Sheltered housing
The Convener: SNP
Although the first group of amendments appears to be tricky, it is not the tricky part of proceedings to which I referred—there are trickier things ahead. Am...
Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): Lab
I hope that I am successful in juggling the paperwork. I thank the convener and the committee for their patience in allowing me to move my amendments this we...
The Convener: SNP
Have you moved amendment 227?
Mr Macintosh: Lab
Do you want me to move it now?
The Convener: SNP
You are required to move it.
Mr Macintosh: Lab
Will we then debate it?
The Convener: SNP
After we have heard the minister's reply, you may, if you wish, seek the committee's leave to withdraw the amendment.
Mr Macintosh: Lab
In that case, I move amendment 227.
Michael Matheson: SNP
The principal reason behind amendment 7 is similar to the concerns that Ken Macintosh expressed about the bill's definition of sheltered housing. The Lord Ad...
Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): SNP
As Kenneth Macintosh said at the beginning, the amendments in the group—except obviously the Executive ones—are the result of extensive discussions with thos...
The Convener: SNP
Heaven forfend, Mr Adam.
Brian Adam: SNP
The potential would exist even for unclever lawyers or developers to remove a warden service as a burden if they did not see the service as being in their in...
Mr Macintosh: Lab
I would like to move amendment 118, to which I did not speak earlier.
The Convener: SNP
That should be amendment 228 and you do not move it now.
Mr Macintosh: Lab
I do not think that I have spoken to amendment 228 or to amendment 118.
The Convener: SNP
What normally happens is that when I call an amendment, you would speak to it and to the other amendments in the group. However, you may speak to amendment 2...
Mr Macintosh: Lab
Amendment 228 is in the name of Sylvia Jackson. I apologise that she is unable to be here. The amendment is in the same spirit as Michael Matheson's amendmen...
The Convener: SNP
However, as you say, those who are 60 or near 60, can be chipper. They were the Elvis Presley people, you know. The Lord Advocate is far too young to be an E...
The Lord Advocate (Colin Boyd):
Amendment 115 is a technical amendment that will ensure that the new rights that are created by the bill will not include a right of pre-emption. Such a righ...
The Convener: SNP
Amendment 228 has not yet been moved, as it relates to another section. It may be moved later.
The Lord Advocate:
There has been anxiety about the definition of sheltered housing and a worry that the definition might exclude what is termed "retirement housing". The issue...
The Convener: SNP
What do mean when you talk about redefining? Are you talking about changing at stage 3 the definition of sheltered housing?
The Lord Advocate:
I would be open to discussing that with Ken Macintosh. I have difficulties with including retirement housing in the definition, but we might be able to discu...
The Convener: SNP
Other committee members are concerned about the definition. I open the discussion to committee members, who might wish to make comments in the light of what ...
Donald Gorrie: LD
I think that I understand what the Lord Advocate said about the difficulty with the definition. I wish to mention another difficulty with the definition in s...
Michael Matheson: SNP
I return to what the Lord Advocate said about the possibility of revisiting the use of the phrase "sheltered housing". If we consider rephrasing the bill and...
The Convener: SNP
Do you wish to address those questions now, Lord Advocate, or do you want to hear other points?
The Lord Advocate:
As this is my first time dealing with amendments at stage 2, I am in the convener's hands.