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Committee

Justice 1 Committee, 17 Dec 2002

17 Dec 2002 · S1 · Justice 1 Committee
Item of business
Title Conditions (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Amendment 228 is in the name of Sylvia Jackson. I apologise that she is unable to be here. The amendment is in the same spirit as Michael Matheson's amendment 7 and would merely add the term "retirement accommodation" to the term "retirement housing" and would put it in a different section.Properties are rarely sold as sheltered housing; they are more commonly referred to as retirement accommodation or retirement housing. Judging by the responses that the minister and the Minister for Justice gave in the chamber earlier, the Executive accepts that "sheltered housing development" includes retirement housing. There is therefore no reason not to include it in the bill.It is important that the matter be clarified for the purposes of the bill because the definition in section 50(4) is vague and involves the provision of"(i) a facility; or(ii) a service,which is one of those which make a sheltered housing development particularly suitable for such occupation".Brian Adam's amendment is intended to highlight the fact that the section is vague: inclusion in the section of warden services would make it more specific. One can imagine a situation in which a developer framed a deed which—although it would provide some services—did not provide all the services that one might expect in a sheltered housing development; for example, a lift or fire doors. It would state specifically in the title that the property was being sold as retirement accommodation rather than as sheltered housing accommodation under the terms of the Title Conditions (Scotland) Bill and therefore the residents of that complex would not enjoy the protection of the bill. If an errant developer proceeded along those lines, it would be difficult to argue that the intention was anything other than to exclude the provisions of the bill. That is why I support amendment 228.Amendment 118 would insert in section 50 the words: "no real burden may impose a minimum age on the ownership of units in the development which is less than sixty years."That was accepted in principle at stage 1, but the committee was tempted to include an element of "flexibility"—as it was called in the committee report—and to reduce that limit to 55 years.Amendment 118 is intended to deter those who wish to acquire property at a reduced market value because it is in a sheltered housing development. Those who live in retirement housing complexes do so because such accommodation is suitable for their interests and age. The flexibility might suit the developer because it would increase the size of the market; however, it is in the interests of those who live in retirement accommodation for everyone who lives in their complex to be above the age of 60.I give the example of a developer who was able to move into such housing a young man in his mid-30s who was in a wheelchair. The man undoubtedly needed sheltered accommodation, but his behaviour was more defined by his age than by the fact that he was in a wheelchair—he was inappropriately housed in that development. The age of 60 should be the appropriate threshold and it should be the key for buying a flat in retirement accommodation.

In the same item of business

The Convener: SNP
Item 3 is the continuation of our stage 2 consideration of the Title Conditions (Scotland) Bill. I welcome to the committee Colin Boyd QC, who is here in pla...
Section 50—Sheltered housing
The Convener: SNP
Although the first group of amendments appears to be tricky, it is not the tricky part of proceedings to which I referred—there are trickier things ahead. Am...
Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): Lab
I hope that I am successful in juggling the paperwork. I thank the convener and the committee for their patience in allowing me to move my amendments this we...
The Convener: SNP
Have you moved amendment 227?
Mr Macintosh: Lab
Do you want me to move it now?
The Convener: SNP
You are required to move it.
Mr Macintosh: Lab
Will we then debate it?
The Convener: SNP
After we have heard the minister's reply, you may, if you wish, seek the committee's leave to withdraw the amendment.
Mr Macintosh: Lab
In that case, I move amendment 227.
Michael Matheson: SNP
The principal reason behind amendment 7 is similar to the concerns that Ken Macintosh expressed about the bill's definition of sheltered housing. The Lord Ad...
Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): SNP
As Kenneth Macintosh said at the beginning, the amendments in the group—except obviously the Executive ones—are the result of extensive discussions with thos...
The Convener: SNP
Heaven forfend, Mr Adam.
Brian Adam: SNP
The potential would exist even for unclever lawyers or developers to remove a warden service as a burden if they did not see the service as being in their in...
Mr Macintosh: Lab
I would like to move amendment 118, to which I did not speak earlier.
The Convener: SNP
That should be amendment 228 and you do not move it now.
Mr Macintosh: Lab
I do not think that I have spoken to amendment 228 or to amendment 118.
The Convener: SNP
What normally happens is that when I call an amendment, you would speak to it and to the other amendments in the group. However, you may speak to amendment 2...
Mr Macintosh: Lab
Amendment 228 is in the name of Sylvia Jackson. I apologise that she is unable to be here. The amendment is in the same spirit as Michael Matheson's amendmen...
The Convener: SNP
However, as you say, those who are 60 or near 60, can be chipper. They were the Elvis Presley people, you know. The Lord Advocate is far too young to be an E...
The Lord Advocate (Colin Boyd):
Amendment 115 is a technical amendment that will ensure that the new rights that are created by the bill will not include a right of pre-emption. Such a righ...
The Convener: SNP
Amendment 228 has not yet been moved, as it relates to another section. It may be moved later.
The Lord Advocate:
There has been anxiety about the definition of sheltered housing and a worry that the definition might exclude what is termed "retirement housing". The issue...
The Convener: SNP
What do mean when you talk about redefining? Are you talking about changing at stage 3 the definition of sheltered housing?
The Lord Advocate:
I would be open to discussing that with Ken Macintosh. I have difficulties with including retirement housing in the definition, but we might be able to discu...
The Convener: SNP
Other committee members are concerned about the definition. I open the discussion to committee members, who might wish to make comments in the light of what ...
Donald Gorrie: LD
I think that I understand what the Lord Advocate said about the difficulty with the definition. I wish to mention another difficulty with the definition in s...
Michael Matheson: SNP
I return to what the Lord Advocate said about the possibility of revisiting the use of the phrase "sheltered housing". If we consider rephrasing the bill and...
The Convener: SNP
Do you wish to address those questions now, Lord Advocate, or do you want to hear other points?
The Lord Advocate:
As this is my first time dealing with amendments at stage 2, I am in the convener's hands.