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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 25 June 2026 [Draft]

25 Jun 2026 · S7 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Prison Population
Nevens, Kate Green Edinburgh and Lothians East Watch on SPTV

I absolutely agree. We need to do all that we can to help people to rebuild their lives through, for example, employability services, and make it much less likely that they will find themselves in the same position again.

We also need to send far fewer people to prison in the first place—we have heard a lot about that in the debate. We should expand presumptions against short sentencing and reduce the use of remand in custody, as Yi-pei Chou Turvey’s amendment makes clear. We should create a presumption against the imprisonment of pregnant women and women with young children, and expand those alternative, restorative and community options for non-violent crimes. In short, we should be using prisons as a last resort rather than a first response.

In the final report of the independent sentencing and penal policy commission, which the Scottish Government set up in 2025, the commission argued that short prison sentences

“are not effective at reducing reoffending and often destabilise lives by disrupting housing, employment, treatment and family ties”,

and that

“Community sentences offer a more effective route to rehabilitation”.

We have heard several members talk about the importance of community justice approaches in the debate.

As we have heard, prisons are expensive, costing more than £52,000 per person per year. If we reduced the prison population by 40 per cent, which the Netherlands has shown us is entirely possible, that would free up £180 million that could be transformative for victims and community safety.

We should properly invest in victim support programmes, rape crisis services and shelters that are providing vital support at a time of massive funding cuts. We should also invest in more prevention programmes that support marginalised communities for whom prison sentences are far more likely, such as care-experienced young people, communities that experience high levels of poverty and racialised groups.

We must also start to tackle the underlying social and economic inequalities that cause people to end up in prison. We must invest more not in prisons but in homes, schools, youth work, addiction services, hospitals and community health services as part of a transformative justice approach.

Where we stand on the issue depends on what we think the justice system exists to do. As the University of Strathclyde’s Professor Mike Nellis has said,

“there is a price to be paid for confusing pragmatic and justifiable responses in the here and now, because they are available, with the longer-term pursuit of a safer society.”

If we want a safer society, we need to start collectively reimagining what our justice system looks like and building new systems that centre victims and the prevention of harm.

16:11

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00469, in the name of Neil Gray, on achieving a sustainable prison population. I invite members who wish ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Neil Gray) SNP
On the day after my appointment as justice secretary, I visited HMP Edinburgh to see the level of pressure that the Scottish Prison Service is facing due to ...
Stephen Kerr (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I thank the cabinet secretary for giving way. He made a point about the remand population. He is quite right that one in four members of our prison populatio...
Neil Gray SNP
Stephen Kerr is correct. We have discussed that matter before, and I believe that the work that has been done on summary case management, which has sped up t...
Stephen Kerr Con
Will the cabinet secretary take this opportunity to accept, with some degree of humility, that the prison capacity situation is a direct result of the neglec...
Neil Gray SNP
I have already referenced that we are building two new prisons and that we are expanding capacity. We already have one of the highest levels of custody per h...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Scottish Labour welcomes the opportunity to have an early discussion on the state of the Scottish prison system. There is a lot in the amendments from the ot...
Neil Gray SNP
I recognise Pauline McNeill’s long-standing commitment to looking at community alternatives to custody. Does she welcome what I am setting out to do in provi...
Pauline McNeill Lab
Yes, I do. I would like an early indication of additional investment in GPS technology. Considering all that we would need to do to provide safety for commun...
Willie Rennie (Fife North East) (LD) LD
Will the member take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark) Lab
The member cannot take an intervention, as she is already in additional time.
Pauline McNeill Lab
I will conclude with a specific point on deaths in custody, which the Criminal Justice Committee had a brief chat about on Wednesday morning. There was a pro...
Amanda Bland (Central Scotland and Lothians West) (Reform) Reform
I thank you, cabinet secretary, and Pauline McNeill.I am interested in your proposals. We agree that the Scottish Prison Service continues to operate in cris...
Amanda Bland (Central Scotland and Lothians West) (Reform) Reform
I thank the cabinet secretary and Pauline McNeill.I am interested in your proposals. We agree that the Scottish Prison Service continues to operate in crisis...
Neil Gray SNP
I should correct the statistic that I gave. It is 8,459 not 8,549. There was a typo in the speech.
Neil Gray SNP
I should correct the statistic that I gave. It is 8,459 not 8,549. There was a typo in the speech.
Amanda Bland Reform
So, we are looking at 106 per cent overcapacity. That is one of the highest levels ever recorded. We are all in agreement that that is unsustainable, is unsa...
Amanda Bland Reform
So, we are looking at 106 per cent overcapacity. That is one of the highest levels ever recorded. We are all in agreement that that is unsustainable, is unsa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark) Lab
I remind all members that they should always speak through the chair.15:01
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark) Lab
I remind all members that they should always speak through the chair.15:01
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
Our prison system is not working. Like so many other institutions, including our national health service and our schools, prisons reflect the society that th...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
Our prison system is not working. Like so many other institutions, including our national health service and our schools, prisons reflect the society that th...
Mark Simpson (North East Scotland) (Reform) Reform
Will the member take an intervention?
Mark Simpson (North East Scotland) (Reform) Reform
Will the member take an intervention?
Maggie Chapman Green
No, not just now.Prison reform should allow us to do the upstream work that we know will help people to avoid prison in the first place. The Scottish Governm...
Maggie Chapman Green
No, not just now.Prison reform should allow us to do the upstream work that we know will help people to avoid prison in the first place. The Scottish Governm...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark) Lab
I remind members that there should be no interruptions or interventions during a first speech. To make his first speech, and to move and speak to amendment S...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark) Lab
I remind members that there should be no interruptions or interventions during a first speech. To make his first speech, and to move and speak to amendment S...
James Adams (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I am proud and honoured to have been elected to represent the north-east of Scotland, the area where I was born, grew up and still proudly call home. I am de...
James Adams (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I am proud and honoured to have been elected to represent the north-east of Scotland, the area where I was born, grew up and still proudly call home. I am de...