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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 11 June 2026 [Draft]

11 Jun 2026 · S7 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I would like to continue the theme that Murdo Fraser and Meghan Gallacher started, which Alyn Smith followed up on, by suggesting that, in Ivan McKee, we have Ivan the Great.

Prior to moving to Argyll and Bute, I lived in Glasgow and worked for BBC Scotland, where I had the pleasure of using my skills as an accountant to empower people to make programmes as creatively and efficiently as possible and give best value to the audience. I have never made a television or radio programme in my life, but I know that, when I had to provide business plans or budgets, the best people to give me the right information to crunch the numbers were the programme makers themselves.

I believe that I created an atmosphere of collaboration, not competition, between different programme makers, and I believe that I gained their trust. Therefore, I believe that learning from those on the front line can drive change and enable progress to be made.

Islay has been my home for the past 15 years. What struck me when I first moved there was the importance of the role that the public sector plays in rural and island communities. People in such communities are closer to the public sector. We see the consequences of public sector decision making. We know the refuse collectors, the teachers live up the road from us and we bump into the doctor in the Co-op. The public sector, which provides the services that we all need, is the beating heart of small communities, and I thank it for its work. I would argue that it is the people who provide those services who know where efficiencies can be achieved, and I agree with the cabinet secretary’s point that organisations need to be structured in a way that allows such dialogue to take place.

When I served in government, I visited NHS Ayrshire and Arran with the women’s health champion, Professor Anna Glasier, and we saw two amazing examples of small teams working together to find ways of integrating disciplines and using new technologies to improve women’s health and change the culture. They knew that they had no more budget. However, they also knew that, by utilising that budget differently, they could invest in prevention and improve women’s health, which is exactly what Joe Long was talking about. I also highlight that the hospital at home service is very successful in my community.

I support the new thinking around subnational planning in our NHS to spread good practice but, having listened to constituents, I have the following observations. When it comes to specialisms such as hip and knee replacements, a national service is the way forward. However, kidney dialysis services should, in my view, be local. I have seen the difference that the dialysis service on the Isle of Bute has made there and how different that is to the experience of my constituents in Lorn and the isles, who have to travel to Fort William for dialysis. I hope that distinction will be recognised by the Government and acted on by cabinet secretaries.

I attended many hustings during the election campaign and the question of ferries always came up. It was clear from the questions we were asked that the triangle of CalMac Ferries, Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd and Transport Scotland does not work. I am pleased that our manifesto includes a commitment to look at that. One suggestion—the Norwegian operating model—was considered and I hope that both Mr McKee and Mr Flynn will take that on board, so to speak.

I strongly believe that the fantastic third sector will help to provide the answers to many of our questions, as others have said. Those in that sector understand the people whom they support, are willing to find innovative ways of working, and are trusted by communities, as Dawn Black mentioned.

In March, I attended a fashion show in Oban, where four local third sector organisations came together to collaborate—not compete—to raise funds for the amazing work that they do across the Oban area. It was fun, colourful and had a clear message: look what we can do if we are empowered to pool our scarce resources. I would advocate for a memorandum of understanding between statutory bodies and the third sector to enable such collaboration, and I absolutely recognise what David Green said about Highland Hospice.

In the time that I have left, I will drop some pebbles into the pool and hope that the ripples that they create will shift public service reform in the right direction. Dawn Black was absolutely correct to talk about Mairi Gougeon and her work on the good food nation, which could really empower local procurement and community wealth building. I heard a suggestion from Argyll and Bute Council about childminders looking after children outwith their homes. I also think, as others have said, that we should move away from yearly budget allocations and, as I mentioned yesterday, I think that we need simpler forms. We should listen directly to communities that find solutions to situations. For example, Tiree has a community vet, a solar array and a community interest company for local carers. Those are all things that local people are doing to try to change the way in which their community operates.

As you know, Presiding Officer, I am trying to bring Gaelic into the chamber. There is a proverb that I hope the cabinet secretary and others will take note of, and which recognises the importance of Scotland’s public service teams. That proverb is, “An rud a nithear gu math, chithear a bhuil,” or, “What is well done will be shown by results.”

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform: empowering staff, service users and local com...
The Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform (Ivan McKee) SNP
I am delighted to open this afternoon’s debate on public service reform, which I believe will be the defining task of this session of Parliament.Public servi...
Andrew Baxter (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD) LD
I am glad that the cabinet secretary has got on to talking about prevention, which was a central tenet of the Christie commission report. I listened to the c...
Ivan McKee SNP
I will talk more about that in the course of my remarks, but, briefly, prevention is one of the four core principles of the Christie commission. When we publ...
Meghan Gallacher (Central Scotland and Lothians West) (Con) Con
The Christie commission was established in 2011. We are talking about prevention, which was mentioned then, and about joined-up working, which was also menti...
Ivan McKee SNP
I do not know whether the member came into the debate late, but she should have heard the first part of my speech in which I listed a whole page of things th...
Willie Rennie (Fife North East) (LD) LD
I agree with all of that, but it sounds as if the cabinet secretary is trying to run the whole of Government by himself. Can he give us an idea of how he is ...
Ivan McKee SNP
I thank the member for his comments. He can rest assured that all my Cabinet colleagues are 100 per cent on board with this important agenda and the First Mi...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to speak to the amendment in my name, in which we set out very clearly, as we did in the election campaign just a few short weeks ago, that Labo...
Michael Marra Lab
If the cabinet secretary wants to tell me that vision, I will gladly hear it right now.
Ivan McKee SNP
Michael Marra talks about fiscal sustainability being the driver. That is one aspect, of course; however, as I articulated in my opening remarks, the driver ...
Michael Marra Lab
I will say two things in response to that. First, I am sure that the cabinet secretary is a keen advocate for that, but I would believe him a bit more if we ...
Malcolm Offord (West Scotland) (Reform) Reform
I congratulate Ivan McKee on his appointment. His role could be the most interesting in the Parliament in the next five years; if he delivers on the targets ...
Willie Rennie LD
What Malcom Offord says is interesting. From his extensive experience as a Conservative minister in the UK Government, what can he teach members about reform...
Malcolm Offord Reform
I will be delighted to cover that, because there are some insights that I was able to glean when I was a minister in the UK Government. Those are part of the...
Ivan McKee SNP
The New Zealand example is instructive. The big difference is that, as a country of 5 million people, New Zealand is a normal independent country. It does no...
Malcolm Offord Reform
Of course, the response to that is that Scotland spends £117 billion but raises £87 billion in taxes, so there is a £30 billion structural deficit that is pa...
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green
Reforming our public services means making sure that they are sustainable for the long term. It also means ensuring that they are delivering what we need the...
Michael Marra Lab
It strikes me that that is precisely what Scottish Labour’s amendment describes. We must understand the shape of those public bodies, decide where there is d...
Lorna Slater Green
The Labour amendment specifically talks about cutting public bodies, but not about making sure that their remits do not overlap, which would involve changing...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new ro...
Ivan McKee SNP
I have been through this a number of times with Mr Fraser, but we will go back through it again for his benefit.First, what he calls the black hole is a proj...
Murdo Fraser Con
We will come on to waste in a moment—I have some suggestions to make in that regard—but I refer Mr McKee to today’s Accounts Commission report on local gover...
Ivan McKee SNP
Made a request to intervene.
Murdo Fraser Con
I will happily give way again if I get the time back.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP
Cabinet secretary, I am afraid that Mr Fraser is in his last minute or so.
Murdo Fraser Con
Perhaps the cabinet secretary could respond to that point in his winding-up speech. I will cover a couple of other points quickly.Fourthly, we need to focus ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP
You must wind up, Mr Fraser.
Murdo Fraser Con
We want to see that black hole in the public finances closed. It needs to close. We need to hear the meat of the Government’s argument on what public service...