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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 11 June 2026 [Last updated 19:16]

11 Jun 2026 · S7 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Marra, Michael Lab North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I will say two things in response to that. First, I am sure that the cabinet secretary is a keen advocate for that, but I would believe him a bit more if we had not gone for 20 years without the Scottish National Party substantially reforming the public sector. There have been some reforms, but they clearly have not met the trends or achieved the scale of transformation that is required—I will come back to that.

Secondly, I am afraid that if we do not have an idea of what is going on, that will result in a management consultancy strategy that is not very likely to gain public buy-in. All we had from the cabinet secretary were some adjectives for what reform could look like, instead of a description of the shape of services that we absolutely require.

I will give the example of health service reform. The recent division of boards into two regions—east and west—has been put in place without any real explanation. It came as a huge surprise to leaders in our national health service and it was imposed without any form of consultation with the trade unions. It did not meet fair work principles from the outset—it is a good example of how not to do reform. Whether there was a case to do it is not the question; the process that the cabinet secretary set out in the strategy and in his speech was not followed, and on that basis, we are concerned about it.

The cabinet secretary knows that I fundamentally believe in the empowerment of citizens. I have told him that my vision of a future Scottish state is very much one in which citizens are empowered, where they own and have control of their data and understand what is happening. However, that requires a broader vision of technological implementation, which I find lacking in the strategy.

Willie Rennie was right to talk about prioritisation. If we do not understand what success would look like, it is really difficult for Parliament and the public to see whether any of this is working. We need the Government to tell us something specific—what a service will look like or that a service will cease to exist—so that it can hang its hat on that and we can understand whether it is making progress, instead of its just talking about the fiscal savings. I think that that is at the heart of this.

Change is, of course, not cost free. When the United Kingdom Labour Government was elected in 2024, I met the then Cabinet Secretary for Finance and said that that moment, with the significant increase in public investment, was a unique opportunity for rapid change. She looked at me as if I had walked out of a spaceship instead of the lift to the ministerial corridor because the very idea was a completely alien concept to the SNP. That is because the SNP was elected in 2007 on the basis of no reform, and it has pursued that for 20 years.

We could say much more about this agenda. It is a huge challenge. I absolutely agree with the cabinet secretary about the preventative aspect. Delayed discharge has cost this country billions of pounds because, under this Government, there was no reform of health and social care when it was clearly needed, on the basis of demographic trends.

I will close by talking about the two practical things that we have asked for in our amendment. The first is

“a timetable for the reduction in … public bodies”.

After five years, I still trip over new ones every week, and I have no idea what they actually do.

Secondly, we are looking for an understanding of the displacement effect of the withdrawal of public capacity in our third sector. It is vital that the Government explains that. Those are practical things that the Government could be doing right now to set the framework on better footing. I look forward to the other contributions in the debate.

I move amendment S7M-00309.3, to insert at end:

“that the Scottish Government’s approach to public service reform should align with the principles of Community Wealth Building, Fair Work and the European Charter for Local Self-Government and the need to encourage economic growth, and calls on the Scottish Government to produce a detailed timetable for the reduction in the number of public bodies as part of a drive to reduce broader waste and to produce a holistic assessment of the impact of the public sector reform programme on Scotland's vital third sector.”

15:33

References in this contribution

Motions, questions or amendments mentioned by their reference code.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform: empowering staff, service users and local com...
The Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform (Ivan McKee) SNP
I am delighted to open this afternoon’s debate on public service reform, which I believe will be the defining task of this session of Parliament.Public servi...
Andrew Baxter (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD) LD
I am glad that the cabinet secretary has got on to talking about prevention, which was a central tenet of the Christie commission report. I listened to the c...
Ivan McKee SNP
I will talk more about that in the course of my remarks, but, briefly, prevention is one of the four core principles of the Christie commission. When we publ...
Meghan Gallacher (Central Scotland and Lothians West) (Con) Con
The Christie commission was established in 2011. We are talking about prevention, which was mentioned then, and about joined-up working, which was also menti...
Ivan McKee SNP
I do not know whether the member came into the debate late, but she should have heard the first part of my speech in which I listed a whole page of things th...
Willie Rennie (Fife North East) (LD) LD
I agree with all of that, but it sounds as if the cabinet secretary is trying to run the whole of Government by himself. Can he give us an idea of how he is ...
Ivan McKee SNP
I thank the member for his comments. He can rest assured that all my Cabinet colleagues are 100 per cent on board with this important agenda and the First Mi...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to speak to the amendment in my name, in which we set out very clearly, as we did in the election campaign just a few short weeks ago, that Labo...
Michael Marra Lab
If the cabinet secretary wants to tell me that vision, I will gladly hear it right now.
Ivan McKee SNP
Michael Marra talks about fiscal sustainability being the driver. That is one aspect, of course; however, as I articulated in my opening remarks, the driver ...
Michael Marra Lab
I will say two things in response to that. First, I am sure that the cabinet secretary is a keen advocate for that, but I would believe him a bit more if we ...
Malcolm Offord (West Scotland) (Reform) Reform
I congratulate Ivan McKee on his appointment. His role could be the most interesting in the Parliament in the next five years; if he delivers on the targets ...
Willie Rennie LD
What Malcom Offord says is interesting. From his extensive experience as a Conservative minister in the UK Government, what can he teach members about reform...
Malcolm Offord Reform
I will be delighted to cover that, because there are some insights that I was able to glean when I was a minister in the UK Government. Those are part of the...
Ivan McKee SNP
The New Zealand example is instructive. The big difference is that, as a country of 5 million people, New Zealand is a normal independent country. It does no...
Malcolm Offord Reform
Of course, the response to that is that Scotland spends £117 billion but raises £87 billion in taxes, so there is a £30 billion structural deficit that is pa...
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green
Reforming our public services means making sure that they are sustainable for the long term. It also means ensuring that they are delivering what we need the...
Michael Marra Lab
It strikes me that that is precisely what Scottish Labour’s amendment describes. We must understand the shape of those public bodies, decide where there is d...
Lorna Slater Green
The Labour amendment specifically talks about cutting public bodies, but not about making sure that their remits do not overlap, which would involve changing...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new ro...
Ivan McKee SNP
I have been through this a number of times with Mr Fraser, but we will go back through it again for his benefit.First, what he calls the black hole is a proj...
Murdo Fraser Con
We will come on to waste in a moment—I have some suggestions to make in that regard—but I refer Mr McKee to today’s Accounts Commission report on local gover...
Ivan McKee SNP
Made a request to intervene.
Murdo Fraser Con
I will happily give way again if I get the time back.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP
Cabinet secretary, I am afraid that Mr Fraser is in his last minute or so.
Murdo Fraser Con
Perhaps the cabinet secretary could respond to that point in his winding-up speech. I will cover a couple of other points quickly.Fourthly, we need to focus ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP
You must wind up, Mr Fraser.
Murdo Fraser Con
We want to see that black hole in the public finances closed. It needs to close. We need to hear the meat of the Government’s argument on what public service...