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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 04 June 2026 [Draft]

04 Jun 2026 · S7 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Wealth Taxation for Public Services

I believe that that is part of the problem, and we should not kid ourselves that it is all just one equation. I accept that and I encourage firmer and faster measures, but we are in this Parliament, where we need to make decisions about our finances. We need to be focused rather than deflecting on to other Parliaments and other issues.

Public service reform will require to be substantial, and we will need to engage in new methods of reform. I will work in partnership with Ivan McKee and Jenny Gilruth to make that happen and reach agreement, if we possibly can, because I accept that change is hard. Today, I met an organisation that promotes social impact bonds. I know that that area was in the Scottish National Party’s manifesto—it was in ours, too—to incentivise investment from private sources in order to secure a return for substantial change. We know that, when a fire is going on in public services, it is difficult to implement change at the same time, because of the people and money that are available, so I am in favour of such measures.

I am in favour of tax reform and, on the face of it, I agree with everything that is in the Green amendment. Council tax reform is long overdue. I would favour moving from taxation of physical assets through business rates to online taxes for Amazon and other such companies. My problem with that is the rhetoric, which sounds too enthusiastic about increasing taxation.

We should have reform, and we should work on the basis that it is revenue neutral as a starting point, before we even consider whether it should result in increased revenue in the future. It sounds as if I am being boring, but a bit of boringness in politics does no harm, because it brings predictability and confidence. The Government and parties sometimes reach for easy solutions, but sometimes the easier and more glitzy something sounds, the more unbelievable it is.

Let us focus on actually making the change. Let us build confidence among taxpayers. Let us grow the economy. Let us make sure that we have more participation in society and the economy, so that more people contribute to taxation—that way, I will get excited. That is the change that we need, and I urge members to vote for our amendment.

I move, as an amendment to motion S7M-00249, to leave out from “welcomes” to end and insert:

“notes that fair taxation must recognise the current cost of living crisis and the impact that any tax increases can have on individuals and businesses; believes that the Scottish Government must prioritise getting Scotland’s finances in order, in light of warnings by the Institute of Fiscal Studies that it faces a ‘fiscal reckoning’; considers that taxpayers in Scotland deserve value for money as well as confidence that their taxes are being spent wisely, and believes that the trust that taxpayers should have in a government to spend wisely has been lost over the last 19 years of an SNP administration.”

References in this contribution

Motions, questions or amendments mentioned by their reference code.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00249, in the name of Jenny Gilruth, on wealth taxation for public services. I invite members who wish to...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
I am conscious that the Minister for Public Finance, Hannah Mary Goodlad, will give her first speech in closing the debate. Hannah Mary’s victory in Shetland...
Craig Hoy (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
I welcome the minister to her new role. How does she explain Scotland’s economic performance gap?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
As Mr McKee is whispering in my ear, the economy is growing faster in Scotland than in other parts of the United Kingdom. In part, that is a result of our ap...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
One of the minister’s predecessors was famously completely unaware of the principles of the Laffer curve. What is her view on that theory and whether it impa...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Mr Flynn has provided me with an analogy with the Laffer curve: it went up and then it fell back down. I am not sure whether Mr Kerr would agree with that an...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the Deputy First Minister take an intervention?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I will take Mr Marra, but I am conscious of the time.
Michael Marra Lab
I appreciate that the Deputy First Minister has given way. In these matters, she and her predecessors have taken advice from a tax advisory group. Can she up...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I think that Mr Marra is referring to the Scottish Fiscal Commission.
Michael Marra Lab
No—the tax advisory group.
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Okay. I would like to come back to Mr Marra in greater detail on that. I met the Scottish Fiscal Commission earlier today and we will continue that engagemen...
Willie Rennie (Fife North East) (LD) LD
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I am happy to do so for Mr Rennie.
Willie Rennie LD
I have been listening carefully to the cabinet secretary’s contribution. She has, in passing, referenced the challenging fiscal set-up, but most of what she ...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I regret that, like his colleague Mr Cole-Hamilton, Mr Rennie has perhaps not been listening to what I have said. To clarify on the record, I note that those...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark) Lab
I remind colleagues that there should be no interventions or interruptions during a first speech. I call Kim Schmulian to speak to and move amendment S7M-002...
Kim Schmulian (Glasgow) (Reform) Reform
Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I join other members in welcoming you and your colleagues to your new roles.I congratulate those members who have been r...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Labour welcomes the early opportunity to debate the scale of the fiscal challenge that the SNP has created for Scotland. The £4.7 billion gap between the spe...
The Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform (Ivan McKee) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Michael Marra Lab
No, thank you. I am just getting started.We might all wish that the process would involve addressing the drug deaths crisis, which is the worst in the develo...
Ivan McKee SNP
Mr Marra said that the fiscal gap is a consequence of the Government’s spending plans and that we have no plan for addressing it. I think that he is wrong on...
Michael Marra Lab
I would certainly have to differ with Mr McKee on some of the analysis. The demand on our public services is recognised. It is clear from many reports by the...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
This is my first opportunity on the record to congratulate the new Deputy First Minister on her appointment. I am pleased that she has chosen to debate this ...
Craig Hoy Con
Would Patrick Harvie concede the point that the very wealthy are also likely to be the most mobile and that they can therefore take their wealth and their as...
Patrick Harvie Green
If the member reads the briefing that I have just mentioned, he will see that the vast majority of millionaires who were canvassed by that organisation are m...
Craig Hoy (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
I think that we all know why this debate is taking place: the SNP Government and John Swinney are in hock to the Scottish Green Party. A party that does not ...
Patrick Harvie Green
I am grateful to the member for taking my intervention. Does he agree in principle that abolishing poverty is a legitimate reason to impose taxation on those...
Craig Hoy Con
Growing the economy is the legitimate way of eradicating poverty. If we grew the economy, we would not need the burgeoning benefits bill that the SNP has pre...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?