Hansard

09:01

The Convener Con

Our next item of business is consideration of a Scottish statutory instrument. I welcome Mairi Gougeon, the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs, Land Reform ...

The Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands (Mairi Gougeon) SNP

I will start by setting out clearly why action is required, what the order is going to deliver and how we intend to work with stakeholders throughout its imp...

The Convener Con

Thank you, cabinet secretary.In the last paragraph of your statement, you said that you want to take an evidence-based approach. That does not appear to be w...

Mairi Gougeon SNP

We set that out quite clearly in the letter that I sent to the committee. As I said in the letter,“It is correct that there is no direct evidence from the Cl...

The Convener Con

I am still confused. All the data suggests that spawning may not be the main problem limiting stock recovery, but this SSI does not bring anything to the tab...

Mairi Gougeon SNP

First, the order maintains the closure, which is the precautionary and proportionate approach to take, so that we are at least providing minimum protection f...

The Convener Con

But it is at a point when they do not need protected—

Mairi Gougeon SNP

I was coming to that, convener, with regard to the purpose of this work. We cannot look at the order in isolation, because the key to the order and the work ...

Dr Coby Needle (Scottish Government)

Good morning, everyone.Convener, the disturbance point that you raise is interesting. Disturbance was used initially as a driver for the spawning closure in ...

The Convener Con

I am still confused, because, in the cabinet secretary’s own words,“the stock maintained relatively high productivity”despite fishing pressure. That suggests...

Dr Needle

I interpret that as saying that, at least up until 2019, the assessment model implied that the productivity of the stock was maintaining at a relatively high...

The Convener Con

Yes, but the spawners are not going to be affected by this SSI.

Dr Needle

But if there are fewer spawners because of high fishing pressure—

The Convener Con

During spawning, though?

Dr Needle

During spawning and throughout the year—

The Convener Con

Surely the spawners are there and they are going to spawn. What is going to be affected through the closure is the act of spawning, not the number of spawner...

Dr Needle

The closed area of the Clyde currently runs for 11 or 12 weeks. We have, therefore, already removed that element of mortality from the area anyway, so we wil...

The Convener Con

Okay. Thank you.Rhoda Grant has a supplementary question.

Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab

Dr Needle, I want to go back to something that you said about the SSI. Did I pick you up right as saying that there could be further measures imposed under t...

Mairi Gougeon SNP

I will just jump in on that point. As I outlined in my opening comments, the intention of the scientific programme would be adaptive, so we would look to tak...

Rhoda Grant Lab

I think that it would be better to have an assurance that if any further measures were going to be taken under the powers given under the SSI, those would co...

Mairi Gougeon SNP

That is the case even with regard to the work that I have just mentioned, such as the future catching policy. We are intending to consult on those measures w...

Rhoda Grant Lab

I think that we would be happier with a commitment that you will come back to this committee or a future committee if there are any more closures or restrict...

Mairi Gougeon SNP

I think that it would be in everybody’s best interests to do that. We would want to keep the committee updated if there were to be any changes.As I said, the...

Rhoda Grant Lab

I am really looking for a guarantee that measures would not be imposed without reference to the committee, and without our having the ability to scrutinise a...

Mairi Gougeon SNP

I might bring in Jim Watson here. If we were to make any substantive changes that would impact the order, it would mean that we could potentially bring forwa...

Jim Watson (Scottish Government)

I can elaborate on how we envisage this working with the stakeholders from month to month. The cabinet secretary has mentioned the working group, which will ...

Rhoda Grant Lab

I am really concerned that you will not give me a guarantee that, if other measures are being imposed, you will bring the matter back to give Parliament the ...

Mairi Gougeon SNP

I will provide clarity on one point. The order is specific in that it sets out the area that is closed. Should there be any changes to that, or should we ide...