Committee
Health and Community Care Committee, 05 Dec 2001
05 Dec 2001 · S1 · Health and Community Care Committee
Item of business
Scottish Public Sector Ombudsman Bill: Stage 1
Mr Michael Buckley (Scottish Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman):
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I am very happy to do so if that would be of convenience to the committee.I thank you for the opportunity to give evidence to the Health and Community Care Committee on the bill that will establish a public sector ombudsman in Scotland. The Scottish Public Sector Ombudsman Bill is the culmination of a long process, which started with the enactment in 1998 of the Scotland Bill. Section 91 of the Scotland Act 1998 states: "The Parliament shall make provision for the investigation of relevant complaints"of maladministration.The Scottish Executive began a consultation process in October 2000, which culminated in the bill that is before us. Ombudsman arrangements south of the border have been the subject of a similar review, although that has not yet resulted in any firm legislative proposals; Scotland is showing the way. I welcome the Scottish Executive's early commitment to legislation, which will enact reforms that are designed to produce a user-friendly and effective ombudsman service for the Scottish public. I submitted evidence to both consultations jointly with my Scottish ombudsman colleagues. My staff have played a full part in a number of working parties with the other ombudsmen's staff and the Scottish Executive, on whose joint steering group they also serve.Only by the creation of a single, unified ombudsman scheme can the difficulties that are faced by those who wish to pursue complaints against bodies that are in separate jurisdictions be removed. An obvious example is a complaint about discharge from an NHS trust into care that is provided by a local authority social work department or care service. It is right in these days of joined-up government and cross-department service delivery that citizens should be able to make complaints without needless and artificial restrictions. I therefore welcome the bill's provision of a new, unified public sector ombudsman.Although many aspects of the bill are either policy matters—which are, properly, the concern of the Scottish Parliament—or detailed operational matters, I have concerns about three elements of the bill. I have outlined those concerns in the memorandum that I have supplied to the committee.First, the bill almost exclusively emphasises investigation. The only functions of the new ombudsman that are mentioned in the bill are investigation and reporting. The bill is not flexible enough in that respect. It would have been preferable to draft the bill in more general terms, leaving as much as possible to the ombudsman's discretion. That would reflect the working methods that are employed by the existing ombudsmen and allow some flexibility in future as technological and social change occurs.I understand that the local government ombudsman published only nine reports of formal investigations in 2000-01, compared with 210 complaints that were informally resolved. I expect that, increasingly, complaints that relate to matters that are now under my jurisdiction as the Scottish parliamentary ombudsman will be resolved informally. I recognise that certain types of complaint must be dealt with by formal investigation resulting in a statutory report. I am thinking particularly about the complex clinical complaints that I received as health service ombudsman. It is surely right that the principle of the ombudsman's resolving each complaint in the most appropriate manner—with the capacity that is necessary to resolve complaints speedily—should not be unnecessarily restricted under the bill.Secondly, it is not clear to me whether the position of the existing staff of the three ombudsmen has been properly protected. The bill as introduced might not conform to the code of practice on staff transfers in the public sector. Although I recognise that detailed examination of the provisions relating to staffing and pensions are perhaps more properly a matter for stage 2 consideration, it is surely an important principle that equitable arrangements and adequate protection for employees should be enshrined in the proposed legislation.Thirdly, I am afraid that the terms of the bill might give rise to incorrect impressions about the ombudsman's independence. As things stand, the determination of the pay, allowances and pensions of the ombudsman and of his or her deputies will be undertaken by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, which is currently within my jurisdiction as Scottish parliamentary ombudsman. It is proposed in the bill that the SPCB, or "Parliamentary corporation", be within the jurisdiction of the new ombudsman.If the ombudsman is to function successfully, credibility in the eyes of the general public and of the administrators in the organisations that are subject to his jurisdiction will be essential. Clearly, the ombudsman must be impartial and independent of those bodies or organisations and must be seen to be so. It might pose a problem if his or her terms of service can be determined by a body that is within his or her jurisdiction.Those are the three aspects of the bill about which I have some reservations. Nevertheless, I emphasise that I broadly welcome the bill as introduced, because it makes provision for an ombudsman service that is open, efficient, accountable and responsive to the needs of the public.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Convener:
Lab
This morning we are taking evidence at stage 1 of the Scottish Public Sector Ombudsman Bill from Mr Michael Buckley, who is the Scottish parliamentary and he...
Mr Michael Buckley (Scottish Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman):
I am very happy to do so if that would be of convenience to the committee.I thank you for the opportunity to give evidence to the Health and Community Care C...
The Deputy Convener:
Lab
Thank you. Members will now put questions to you. I start by asking whether sufficient consultation has taken place about the one-stop-shop element of the bill?
Mr Buckley:
As far as I am concerned, sufficient consultation has taken place. The Executive consulted my office and me and we had the chance to input significantly. We ...
The Deputy Convener:
Lab
Have the views that were expressed in the consultation process been taken into account in the bill?
Mr Buckley:
I think that they have been. As I said, I have some reservations, in particular about the need to provide for a flexible method of working. We should not tie...
The Deputy Convener:
Lab
Will pulling together the various ombudsmen produce a lack of clarity? It might be that those who are drafting the bill are looking to one particular area an...
Mr Buckley:
There is probably a temptation to take the existing legislation and try to put it all together. The bill is successful in one of its main aims, which is to r...
The Deputy Convener:
Lab
During the consultation process, did you make the point about starting with a clean sheet of paper? If so, does the bill as drafted contain significant error...
Mr Buckley:
The bill undoubtedly provides the basis for a better public sector complaints service. I stress that, in broad terms, I welcome the bill. However, I repeat t...
Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab):
Lab
I want to turn to the remit of the ombudsman. The proposed remit excludes some of the advisory non-departmental public bodies. Are you satisfied with the pro...
Mr Buckley:
The remit reflects the existing remits of all the ombudsmen, with a few additions. The remit is a matter for the Executive to propose and the Parliament to d...
Mr McAllion:
Lab
In considering the remit, Parliament might find your views helpful. Should the police be included?
Mr Buckley:
I know from colleagues from overseas that the police can be included, so it is not impossible. As to whether it should be done, I really do not think that it...
Mr McAllion:
Lab
I want to turn to the powers of enforcement over any authority that refuses to follow a recommendation or that fails to remedy an injustice. The policy memor...
Mr Buckley:
I agree that findings, conclusions and recommendations of the ombudsman should not be legally binding. I have two main reasons for saying that. First, if the...
Mr McAllion:
Lab
I understand your point that, unlike you, ministers are elected and have democratic authority, but what happens if ministers ignore the fact that various aut...
Mr Buckley:
There is. It would certainly be possible to have an understanding that, if ministers in the Executive rejected findings and recommendations of the ombudsman,...
Mr McAllion:
Lab
I am sure that the whips would ensure that the Executive got the necessary support.
Mr Buckley:
Yes, but I am talking about the constitutional theory.
Mr McAllion:
Lab
On a number of occasions, you have spoken about artificial restrictions that, under the present system, interfere with people's right to make a complaint aga...
Mr Buckley:
The example that I use is deliberately drawn from the health sphere, because that is the one with which I am most familiar. We know of a case in which there ...
Mr McAllion:
Lab
The bill seeks to ensure improved consultation between the ombudsman and other statutory ombudsmen and commissioners. Will you explain how that will work in ...
Mr Buckley:
To an extent, the bill aims to preserve the current position rather than to change it. There exists the potential for frequent complaints about freedom of in...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
Two of the three concerns in your memorandum are about the protection of your staff, and who determines the ombudsman's pay, allowances and pension. The thir...
Mr Buckley:
I see three problems, but I do not want to suggest that my unhappiness extends to most of the bill. On the contrary; in general terms, I support the bill.I h...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
I return to the important point that you made about the bill's proposal that the Parliamentary corporation should determine the ombudsman's pay and allowance...
Mr Buckley:
It is possible that that impression will gain currency. I will put that more strongly. No one would dream of allowing the Executive to determine the pay and ...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
You have covered the staffing issues quite extensively. I pick up on John McAllion's question on the scrutiny of cross-cutting areas; for example community c...
Mr Buckley:
There are two points. The first is that, because the new ombudsman will be able to examine complaints across the public sector, in particular complaints abou...