Committee
Education, Children and Young People Committee 19 November 2025
19 Nov 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I did not realise that we were proceeding quite so quickly, convener.
Following my intervention on Pam Duncan-Glancy, I continue to struggle to see how the proposals would work in practice. As the member said, teachers are under a lot of pressure, and concerns have been raised by the unions that, if the proposals move on to a statutory footing and if there is a large increase in the number of young people going on residential trips, that will change the whole nature of them.
I totally support the idea of teachers volunteering, which works at the moment. With a bit of extra money, we could build on that.
However, if we bring the proposals into legislation, it would be very difficult to maintain the idea of voluntarism.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Our next item is consideration of the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome Liz Smith MSP, the member in charge of th...
The Convener
Con
Now that we have covered the process, we can move to the substantive business. Amendment 1, in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy, is grouped with amendments 2, 2...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
Good morning to the committee and to Liz Smith. I set out at the start my thanks to the member in charge for the way in which she has engaged on the bill and...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind)
Ind
It seems to me be a bit of a challenge to tie these two things together: if a school is required to send all its children away on a trip and, in an extreme c...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
I do not think that my amendment 28 would destroy the purpose of the bill; it is certainly not my intention for that to be the case. The principle of volunta...
The Convener
Con
I call John Mason.
John Mason
Ind
I did not realise that we were proceeding quite so quickly, convener. Following my intervention on Pam Duncan-Glancy, I continue to struggle to see how the...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
I ask John Mason to forgive me for not looking in his direction, as I want to read the exact wording in the amendment. I should say, first of all, that the...
John Mason
Ind
I am interested to hear what the member in charge of the bill has to say on that area, especially in relation to her amendments 13 and 14, which are in the n...
The Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise (Natalie Don-Innes)
SNP
I welcome the amendments in this group and thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for lodging them and explaining their intent. The amendments, which concern the impacts of...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
I understand the points that the minister is making. However, in actual fact, the intention of the amendment is to not cut across that arrangement. That is w...
Natalie Don-Innes
SNP
At the moment, I do not believe so. Further engagement with the unions to understand some of the complexities that we have been over in the committee previou...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Will the minister give way? 09:45
Natalie Don-Innes
SNP
I want to finish responding to Ms Duncan-Glancy first. The view that I have received from the teaching unions is that legislating in the way that the bill do...
Miles Briggs
Con
I agree with what the minister says. When we look at where we are delivering in Scotland—in my local authority here in Edinburgh but also in Aberdeenshire an...
Natalie Don-Innes
SNP
That is the impression that I got from unions—that teachers really buy into these experiences—and putting that provision in the bill could jeopardise that. ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Convener, I begin by thanking you, the committee and all those who lodged amendments to the bill, and the minister and her officials and my officials for the...
John Mason
Ind
The member expresses some doubt in her remarks, but does she think that there are enough teachers willing to volunteer to get all the kids who should be goin...
Liz Smith
Con
Yes, I do, and I think that the evidence shows that. Mr Briggs referred earlier to his local authority, where it is quite clear that substantial numbers of t...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
On the principle of voluntarism, it is clear from the conversation that we have had that the evidence suggests that there will be teachers and staff in schoo...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 13, in the name of Liz Smith, is grouped with amendment 14.
Liz Smith
Con
Amendments 13 and 14 qualify the duties on education authorities and managers of grant-aided schools to provide or secure the provision of one course of resi...
John Mason
Ind
I do not wish to labour the point, but would not having enough volunteer teachers in a school for a trip be one of those reasonable reasons?
Liz Smith
Con
I do not think so, given the context of how other legislation is written. The same phrase comes up in other legislation, which is one of the reasons for lodg...
Natalie Don-Innes
SNP
I start by saying that this is the first opportunity that I have had since stage 1 to acknowledge and welcome the extremely constructive approach of the memb...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Ind)
Ind
For absolute clarity on this issue, will you confirm that a local authority being under financial pressure would not be a reason to stop a school or a group ...
Natalie Don-Innes
SNP
I do not believe that it would be. I am glad that Mr Balfour has brought up that point, because it relates to Mr Mason’s point, too. I hope that, through the...
The Convener
Con
I call Liz Smith to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 13.
Liz Smith
Con
I have nothing further to say, other than that I very much welcome those assurances and will press amendment 13. Amendment 13 agreed to. Amendment 14 mov...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 15, in the name of Liz Smith, is grouped with amendments 3, 11, 4, 17, 5, 12 and 22 to 25. I point out that, if amendment 17 is agreed to, I cannot...