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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 25 September 2025

25 Sep 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Macpherson, Ben SNP Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

I need to make some progress, but thank you.

At its core, the bill intends to make impactful changes to ensure that funding goes directly to where it matters most, supporting the skills, services and innovation that our economy needs to thrive. The bill is, of course, founded on evidence from James Withers’s review, and from Audit Scotland’s 2022 report. The Withers review was informed by extensive engagement with stakeholders, and it made a compelling case for change. That case for change has directly shaped the bill.

As a Government, we have kept engagement at the heart of developing the bill and, as I say, I intend to continue that proactively. Over the summer, ministers were out and about speaking to partners about the bill and how it can be shaped by those who know the system best, including a range of trade union organisations, business organisations and others who work in the economy. We have listened to their views on how we can make the most of this opportunity, and I am grateful that two of those organisations—the Federation of Small Businesses and the Scottish Training Federation—have come out in support of the bill, alongside Universities Scotland, which I mentioned, and Colleges Scotland.

The SFC has also undertaken its own extensive engagement on the bill, and its role in the consideration of the bill is obviously key. I want to be clear that the changes that are proposed in the bill would simplify the funding landscape and everything that would flow from that. The changes would require the SFC to evolve significantly in its structure, culture and role. The bill would not simply enable a merging of responsibilities. It would be a fundamental redesign of how we fund and govern tertiary education and training in Scotland. That enhanced body would lead to a unified, integrated sector that is better aligned to the needs of learners, employers and the economy, and a key part of that will be building strong, lasting partnerships with employers.

Apprenticeships must continue to reflect the needs of business and the wider economy, with significant input from, and collaboration with, business. It is important that apprenticeships are made more accessible to young people with disabilities and those facing other barriers. The bill also proposes putting apprenticeships on a statutory footing, which I believe is significant.

I want to address concerns that have been expressed about the risk of diluting apprenticeship funding. Let me be clear: we are absolutely committed to continuing funding for all types of apprenticeships. We have given careful thought to protecting the apprenticeship budget. Funding provided to the SFC under the bill would be used by the SFC only for that purpose. Funding allocations for further and higher education and apprenticeships are set in the Scottish budget process, but we will ensure that the funding priorities are clear.

In the evidence-taking process for the bill, we heard concerns about foundation apprenticeships. I reassure the Parliament that we greatly value the opportunities that they provide. The bill makes provision for work-based learning, which largely covers what is currently delivered through foundation apprenticeships. I am keen to work with the Parliament and stakeholders to address any genuine concerns about how those provisions will work in practice.

I appreciate that the committee raised reasonable and important concerns about costs in the financial memorandum, which I want to address directly. We have worked closely with SDS and the SFC to refine the figures and, with the latest information, I am pleased to emphasise that the upper cost estimate has reduced by around a third to around £22 million. Work is on-going to finalise costs, but I hope that the additional financial detail in the letter from my predecessor offers reassurance. I remain committed to keeping the Parliament updated as the analysis progresses.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-19027, in the name of Ben Macpherson, on the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Sc...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson) SNP
I am pleased to open today’s debate on the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill as my first contribution to parliamentary...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I welcome Ben Macpherson to his new role. When he met Dr Liz Cameron from the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, did she express her strong opposition to the bil...
Ben Macpherson SNP
My engagement with the Chambers of Commerce and with Dr Liz Cameron has been extensive over my years as an MSP, and I respect her and the organisation very m...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Does the minister accept that Universities Scotland and others have said that those changes could happen now, and that there is money associated with the bil...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I was pleased to speak with Universities Scotland yesterday, and I was pleased to see the support for the bill that it issued in advance of today’s debate.
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the member give way?
Ben Macpherson SNP
I need to make some progress, but thank you. At its core, the bill intends to make impactful changes to ensure that funding goes directly to where it matter...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Will the minister give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The minister should be starting to conclude his remarks.
Ben Macpherson SNP
We want to consider what improvements can be made to the range of different models for vocational pathways so that we can build on good practice and protect ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Douglas Ross to speak on behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. 15:07
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee about our scrutiny of the Tertiary Education and T...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call on Miles Briggs to open on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. 15:15
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
I welcome the minister to his role, as I did on Tuesday. I also thank Graeme Dey for his constructive work on the bill both cross party and with the Educati...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
This morning.
Miles Briggs Con
Oh—this morning. The work that the school is undertaking with young people in that part of the capital—especially those with attendance challenges—is exempl...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Miles Briggs Con
Yes, very briefly.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Although some sectors might well value the delivery of the skills system through alternative provision, specifically private provision, is there not also a r...
Miles Briggs Con
Yes, and I will come on to that. That is, as the committee highlighted, one of the main concerns. According to Audit Scotland’s report “Scotland’s colleges ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Pam Duncan-Glancy to open on behalf of Scottish Labour. 15:22
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
We have a proud history of skills in Scotland. Our people are among the most talented in the world, and we punch above our weight when it comes to our contri...
Ben Macpherson SNP
As I outlined in my opening remarks, there is a shared understanding that, across the chamber, we need to make improvements throughout the country. Does the ...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I welcome the minister’s intervention. Forgive me, but I should have started by welcoming him to his place and congratulating him again on his new role. Of ...
Ben Macpherson SNP
Made a request to intervene.
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Presiding Officer, do I have time to take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I can give you a bit of time back.
Ben Macpherson SNP
It would be helpful for me at this juncture to understand whether the parties that are opposing the bill today have a determination to work with the proposed...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
We are, of course, always happy to work with members across the chamber during the progress of any bill and to improve any piece of legislation. We will not ...