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Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 03 December 2025 [Draft]

03 Dec 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Good morning. Forgive me, because I have already spoken and have not said that yet.

My amendment 109 says that work-based learning or foundation apprenticeships must be delivered collaboratively with employers, local authorities and schools and that consideration must be given to the attainment gap, post-school destinations and rural access and transport barriers.

Andrew Ritchie from Aberdeenshire Council, when giving evidence to the committee, said that moving foundation apprenticeships from the apprenticeship family to

“as yet undefined work-based learning courses”

poses a risk that

“foundation apprenticeships will be no more”.—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 14 May 2025; c 6.]

East Ayrshire Council’s education service said that the bill

“endangers the provision of school-based qualifications and effectively places them solely in FE domain.”

In addition, John Vincent, of Colleges Scotland, said that it would be an “enormous loss” if foundation apprenticeships, particularly at SCQF level 6, lost their status as a result of the measures in the bill.

09:45  

The Government did not support many of my other amendments on foundation apprenticeships. Amendment 109 is a backstop that would protect foundation apprenticeships in the legislation, and guarantee that the experts in delivering them—local authorities, education services and colleges—are involved in the future development of them. Given that the Government does not support any of my other amendments, I hope that it can support amendment 109.

My amendment 114 says that the Scottish Funding Council

“must have regard to the needs of small and micro businesses”

in the work that it does. When we took evidence on the bill, one of the concerns—it is one of many—was that it did not deliver for trade, industry and businesses. One of the ways in which I am seeking to address that is through amendment 114. I appreciate the minister’s comments about not necessarily needing to state that in the bill, but, as we have seen in recent years, if something is not put in statute—if it is not in primary legislation—when the going gets tough, it usually has to get going. That is why it is incredibly important to include the provision in the bill.

I move to my colleague Daniel Johnson’s amendments. His amendment 113 seeks to ensure that, if public money goes to private and independent providers for in-work learning and apprenticeships, that we require for the public pound value for money, fair work as standard and transparency on spend. It would also require that we publish the shift in that funding, so that if it is moving from public sector provision, that would be seen clearly and transparently.

I note the minister’s point that we are in agreement that value for money, fair work and transparency are important. However, I again refer him to my comments about the fact that, if that provision is not in the bill, we run the risk of that not being done in a system that is already particularly stretched. All that amendment 113 seeks to require is that, when public money is spent by a private provider, we get value for money and ensure that they adopt fair work practices. The minister noted that, through the amendment, we would be setting out what fair work practices would be—it was something along those lines. That is not what amendment 113 says. It merely says that a provider must adopt fair work practices. Requiring the adoption of such practices should not be a surprise or news to the Government, which talks about its commitment to fair work. If it is committed to such practices, I urge the Government to support amendment 113.

Daniel Johnson’s amendment 117 seeks to place a duty on the SFC to expand modern work-based earn-and-learn routes, including graduate levels, which is why we support his amendment over others in this group that seek to do a similar thing. The amendment would apply to sectors in which there are shortages, such as the NHS, care, net zero, digital and planning. As we know, work-based learning programmes have been slow to adapt and have not addressed major public service gaps, such as NHS roles. Amendment 117 would future proof work-based learning and would enable us to address some of the significant skills and workforce gaps in the key areas where we know Scotland will need skills and people in the future.

Daniel Johnson’s amendment 120 would require the SFC’s annual report to include information on the amount of funding that is provided to employers and training providers for the purpose of delivering Scottish apprenticeships, including, for each framework, the level of funding that is provided for an individual Scottish apprenticeship. We know that contribution rates are frozen, including in plumbing and in other industries. Stakeholders fear that, inside the Scottish Funding Council, apprenticeship money could become the easiest pot to raid and that SMEs will just stop taking on apprenticeships in that circumstance. Amendment 120 seeks to address that.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Our next item is continued consideration at stage 2 of the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome back Ben Macph...
The Convener Con
Amendment 94, in the name of Stephen Kerr, is grouped with amendments 9, 10, 95, 30, 96 to 102, 31, 11, 32, 103 to 109, 33, 110 to 112, 12, 113 to 120, 34 an...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Good morning. I will speak to amendments 94, 96 to 100 and 119, which are in my name and which all relate to the funding of Scottish apprenticeships and work...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Amendment 94 refers to “a publicly-funded Scottish apprenticeship”. Does that mean in the public sector? Would it mean that local authorities would have to...
Stephen Kerr Con
No. I am referring to the mechanism by which places are funded rather than where the places are located, whether in the public or private sector.
John Mason Ind
We could not insist on the private sector creating apprenticeships if it did not want or need them. Would it therefore fall to the public sector to provide t...
Stephen Kerr Con
I think that John Mason will find that there is great demand for apprenticeships. Currently, that demand is unmet. If you listen to employers, as I am sure J...
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
My understanding is that the term “work-based learning” is intended to cover all types of activities currently undertaken as foundation apprenticeships. Howe...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson) SNP
I will come to that in my remarks, if that is okay.
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
Good morning. My amendment 95 would add a new definition of work-based learning—it would make it clear that foundation apprenticeships are included in the st...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
On amendment 103, will the member explain the 75 per cent figure and what the current split is, so that we can get an understanding of that?
Miles Briggs Con
I worked with Colleges Scotland on the amendment, and 75 per cent is the capacity that it would expect to be able to deliver, leaving 25 per cent for other p...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
For my four amendments in this group, I have been working with SELECT—Scotland’s electrical trade association. Amendment 30 specifies that Scottish ministers...
Ben Macpherson SNP
The dialogue that we have had so far this morning speaks again to the strong alignment across the Parliament and the committee to improve the system, which i...
Willie Rennie LD
If the minister has finished with Jackie Dunbar’s amendments, I want to make a point about my amendments 31 to 33. They are not about limiting fees, but abou...
Ben Macpherson SNP
In the bill, a managing agent is a training provider, and I value the important role that training providers and managing agents play in the current system. ...
Stephen Kerr Con
Minister, do you accept that this approach will create uncertainty in the funding of apprenticeships? In effect, you are saying that all of this will be done...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I refer back to what I said about the letter of guidance and the stage 2 discussions that we have had on how the apprenticeship committee will direct the SFC...
Stephen Kerr Con
Does the minister accept that there is quite a lot of unmet demand, especially in the SME sector? Does he also understand that hundreds of millions of pounds...
Ben Macpherson SNP
We will discuss the apprenticeship levy in later groups of amendments, but the fact is that the situation is not as Stephen Kerr sets out. It is more complic...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I have been pulling up the exact detail of amendment 113. Although I appreciate the conversation that we had last week on fair work practices, does the minis...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for that intervention. She and other members will recall that amendment 73 in group 5 covered similar ground, and the issue was sub...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Will the minister take another intervention?
Ben Macpherson SNP
I would like to make progress, if that is okay. The reform to the skills landscape that we are taking forward does not anticipate skills planning to be some...
The Convener Con
There is clearly some interference in the room, which we are trying to sort out. Are members content that we continue, or is it too distracting? I see that w...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Good morning. Forgive me, because I have already spoken and have not said that yet. My amendment 109 says that work-based learning or foundation apprentices...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I have heard before the misconception about apprenticeships not being a priority for the SFC, should the Parliament pass the bill and it be implemented. I wa...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
The amendment is not about saying that the SFC would not prioritise apprenticeships. It is about recognising that the SFC is quite busy with other fires that...
Ben Macpherson SNP
Will the member give way?
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I will finish my point, then I will be happy to do so. In the minister’s letter to the committee, he sets out the future responsibilities of the redesigned f...