Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 20 January 2026
20 Jan 2026 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill
In my opening speech, Roz McCall intervened on me with what I think was a very fair challenge. If there is no clear strategic direction, how are we going to achieve alignment? Having sat here for six and a half hours at that point, I could not find the word that I was looking for in my brain, but the word was “function”. If we gather all the relevant functions under one roof, it makes it far easier to achieve that alignment.
That still requires clear strategic direction, though. We can legislate for structure, but it is much harder to legislate for strategy. Indeed, in many respects, Parliament should not legislate for strategy. It is for voters at each election to decide what Government they elect and for the Government to set its strategy, not for us in Parliament to legislate to bind future Governments. However, we can legislate to set some direction on that strategy.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-20484, in the name of Ben Macpherson, on the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Sc...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson)
SNP
I am pleased to open this stage 3 debate, and I want to start by thanking my predecessor, Graeme Dey, for the remarkable amount of work that he did and for p...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lab
It is good to hear the minister’s thanks to Skills Development Scotland, but will he acknowledge that the Scottish Government left those working for Skills D...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
I appreciate the member’s point. That is not my understanding of the situation, but, of course, I was not the minister during that period. However, I can say...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
The minister has said that he has thought about the bill a lot. I ask him to put on the record whether, at any point since he became minister, he gave any co...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
I was educated in our system in Scotland to believe in the importance of critical thinking, and that will be crucial in the period ahead. Indeed, I apply it ...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
One of the missed opportunities with this bill was the opportunity to fully implement the recommendations from the von Prondzynski review in 2012. Some of us...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
I thank the member for her intervention and her engagement on these matters, not just at stage 2 but more generally. The Government has considered what more ...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con)
Con
I thank the many organisations and businesses that have provided helpful briefings ahead of the stage 3 debate, and I also thank them for their work at stage...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con)
Con
I thank the many organisations and businesses that have provided helpful briefings ahead of the stage 3 debate, and I also thank them for their work at stage...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lab
I reiterate my thanks to the Minister for Higher and Further Education for the way that he has approached the bill, which has been very useful. There has bee...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green)
Green
The Greens will support the bill this evening, for the reasons that I outlined at stage 1 although, at that point, I expressed some scepticism that I will co...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I apologise if the member has moved on from the subject but, if we do not have a clear strategy, how will we know that the outcomes will be met?
Ross Greer
Green
In part, ministers will have a far greater ability to direct the strategy when more of the objectives and purposes are sitting under one roof. There is a nee...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD)
LD
The context for the bill is the Audit Scotland report from some years ago. That report was scathing in its criticism of all those involved in the sector and ...
Douglas Ross
Con
It is my understanding that, just last month, SDS wrote to the minister to set out alternative views and opinions on possible reforms that would not be as co...
Willie Rennie
LD
Douglas Ross is probably right, but I fear that it is too late to do that in this debate—we are so far down the track now. I hope that there is pragmatic par...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We move to the open debate. 20:30
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
SNP
As in the stage 1 debate, I thank the committee clerks, the witnesses, the ministers—former and present—and the officials. I also thank my fellow committee m...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
Far be it from me to use my limited time to stand up and defend the Labour Party, but I have to take exception to what Jackie Dunbar said. She commented that...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the member for taking this intervention, as I tried and hoped to get to my mouse quickly enough to intervene on Jackie Dunbar earlier. I wanted to as...
Douglas Ross
Con
I agree with Pam Duncan-Glancy’s points. To stick with this issue for a little longer, I say to Jackie Dunbar that she should be less concerned about the mo...
Daniel Johnson
Lab
As well as the lack of people giving encouraging evidence to the Education, Children and Young People Committee, the Economy and Fair Work Committee heard fr...
Douglas Ross
Con
It should, and the Education, Children and Young People Committee put that in our report, too. My time is almost up, but I want to raise a couple more issue...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We move to winding-up speeches. There is a little time in hand. 20:39
Ross Greer
Green
In my opening speech, Roz McCall intervened on me with what I think was a very fair challenge. If there is no clear strategic direction, how are we going to ...
Daniel Johnson
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Ross Greer
Green
I will, in just a second. I point to an amendment of mine that was agreed to at stage 2 of the bill that requires the SFC to have due regard to the Governme...
Daniel Johnson
Lab
I accept Ross Greer’s point about function, to a degree. However, there is also the SFC’s ability to combine functions. If we look at the experience of the u...
Ross Greer
Green
To some extent, Daniel Johnson makes a fair point, but I do not think that that is all on the SFC. A lot of that ultimately comes down to decisions made by G...