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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 20 January 2026

20 Jan 2026 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill
Greer, Ross Green West Scotland Watch on SPTV

In part, ministers will have a far greater ability to direct the strategy when more of the objectives and purposes are sitting under one roof. There is a need for greater ministerial direction, and some of the amendments that we have made to the bill should also aid that greater strategic alignment.

I will quote from paragraph 417 of the report by James Withers, where he says that

“there must be a clear articulation of the areas that are a national priority. This goes beyond signalling ‘economic transformation’ or ‘net zero’ into a specific articulation, aligned to strategic policy intentions, of the sectors and occupations that will be critical to their delivery and their workforce needs.”

In essence, he calls for fewer buzzwords and more clear strategic direction, and his point about net zero is one obvious example of that. We need far more people who are trained to install and maintain heat pumps, we must transition the existing workforce who deal with gas boilers, and we need to increase the workforce. However, during my party’s time in government, I saw how hard it was to get the system to line up behind that objective.

We are also trying to legislate for cultural change because part of the difficulty in getting the whole sector to line up behind that objective comes from the cultural differences between the organisations. Again, I think that will be part of the value of having everything sitting under one roof. It was clear in the Audit Scotland report in particular that the different cultures in the two organisations led to significant barriers to achieving the kind of alignment that Withers and Audit Scotland asked for and which I believe Parliament expects. That is one reason why we support the bill: bringing more parts of the system under one roof should reduce the risk of the sort of culture clash that we saw between the two organisations.

We wrestled with similar challenges during the progress of the Education (Scotland) Act 2025 and the need to replace the Scottish Qualifications Authority. Legislating to change culture is not easy, but we have made a number of amendments to the bill, particularly those dealing with the membership of the council and the apprenticeship committee. It is not perfect and there was a range of views, so we needed to compromise, but I think that we have established an underpinning structure that should allow for the kind of cohesive culture that will, in turn, create the alignment that we all expect to get from the system.

20:24  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-20484, in the name of Ben Macpherson, on the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Sc...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson) SNP
I am pleased to open this stage 3 debate, and I want to start by thanking my predecessor, Graeme Dey, for the remarkable amount of work that he did and for p...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
It is good to hear the minister’s thanks to Skills Development Scotland, but will he acknowledge that the Scottish Government left those working for Skills D...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I appreciate the member’s point. That is not my understanding of the situation, but, of course, I was not the minister during that period. However, I can say...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
The minister has said that he has thought about the bill a lot. I ask him to put on the record whether, at any point since he became minister, he gave any co...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I was educated in our system in Scotland to believe in the importance of critical thinking, and that will be crucial in the period ahead. Indeed, I apply it ...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
One of the missed opportunities with this bill was the opportunity to fully implement the recommendations from the von Prondzynski review in 2012. Some of us...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I thank the member for her intervention and her engagement on these matters, not just at stage 2 but more generally. The Government has considered what more ...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
I thank the many organisations and businesses that have provided helpful briefings ahead of the stage 3 debate, and I also thank them for their work at stage...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
I thank the many organisations and businesses that have provided helpful briefings ahead of the stage 3 debate, and I also thank them for their work at stage...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I reiterate my thanks to the Minister for Higher and Further Education for the way that he has approached the bill, which has been very useful. There has bee...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
The Greens will support the bill this evening, for the reasons that I outlined at stage 1 although, at that point, I expressed some scepticism that I will co...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I apologise if the member has moved on from the subject but, if we do not have a clear strategy, how will we know that the outcomes will be met?
Ross Greer Green
In part, ministers will have a far greater ability to direct the strategy when more of the objectives and purposes are sitting under one roof. There is a nee...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
The context for the bill is the Audit Scotland report from some years ago. That report was scathing in its criticism of all those involved in the sector and ...
Douglas Ross Con
It is my understanding that, just last month, SDS wrote to the minister to set out alternative views and opinions on possible reforms that would not be as co...
Willie Rennie LD
Douglas Ross is probably right, but I fear that it is too late to do that in this debate—we are so far down the track now. I hope that there is pragmatic par...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the open debate. 20:30
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
As in the stage 1 debate, I thank the committee clerks, the witnesses, the ministers—former and present—and the officials. I also thank my fellow committee m...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
Far be it from me to use my limited time to stand up and defend the Labour Party, but I have to take exception to what Jackie Dunbar said. She commented that...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I thank the member for taking this intervention, as I tried and hoped to get to my mouse quickly enough to intervene on Jackie Dunbar earlier. I wanted to as...
Douglas Ross Con
I agree with Pam Duncan-Glancy’s points. To stick with this issue for a little longer, I say to Jackie Dunbar that she should be less concerned about the mo...
Daniel Johnson Lab
As well as the lack of people giving encouraging evidence to the Education, Children and Young People Committee, the Economy and Fair Work Committee heard fr...
Douglas Ross Con
It should, and the Education, Children and Young People Committee put that in our report, too. My time is almost up, but I want to raise a couple more issue...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to winding-up speeches. There is a little time in hand. 20:39
Ross Greer Green
In my opening speech, Roz McCall intervened on me with what I think was a very fair challenge. If there is no clear strategic direction, how are we going to ...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Ross Greer Green
I will, in just a second. I point to an amendment of mine that was agreed to at stage 2 of the bill that requires the SFC to have due regard to the Governme...
Daniel Johnson Lab
I accept Ross Greer’s point about function, to a degree. However, there is also the SFC’s ability to combine functions. If we look at the experience of the u...
Ross Greer Green
To some extent, Daniel Johnson makes a fair point, but I do not think that that is all on the SFC. A lot of that ultimately comes down to decisions made by G...