Holyrood, made browsable

Hansard

Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

129
Current MSPs
415
MSPs ever elected
13
Parties on record
2,355,091
Hansard contributions
1999–2026
Coverage span
Official Report

Search Hansard contributions

Clear
Showing 0 of 2,355,091 contributions in session S6, 17 Apr 2026 – 17 May 2026. Latest 30 days: 148. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 14 May 2026.

No contributions match those filters.

← Back to list
Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 20 January 2026

20 Jan 2026 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

I reiterate my thanks to the Minister for Higher and Further Education for the way that he has approached the bill, which has been very useful. There has been clear engagement, and I can see some differences between the bill that we have in front of us and the one that he first examined. Likewise, I do not think that the bill is without merit. There is strong sense in bringing funding streams together so that money can be used more flexibly.

However, we cannot support the bill as it is. The advantage of a stage 3 debate happening immediately after the stage 3 amendment process is that none of the arguments will be entirely new, and the fundamental point that I have been making this afternoon and this evening is that structural reform that is embarked on without clarity about what is sought or to be achieved and without strategy has risks, at least, and can be damaging, at worst.

To put it the other way round, I note that the minister said in his opening remarks that he hopes that the reforms will bring about the changes in the skills system that we all want to see, but we do not know what those are. We do not know what success looks like, and we do not know what the skills and apprenticeship systems will look like or feel like or what difference will be made as a result of the reforms. We will not know whether the bill has succeeded because we do not have that clarity from the Government. How do we know that the structures in the bill are right? How do we know that the form of organisation will enable delivery?

Let us be clear that we need change. Trade bodies and individual businesses have set out that a number of changes should be made, and we need urgent change, but that is the last thing that this Government is doing. It is 10 years since the enterprise and skills review that started much of this work off, it is three since the Withers review, and it is going to take another three years for the bill to be fully implemented. It is all taking far too long. The Government would do well to listen to the voices of those who have clear views about how flexibility, upskilling and reskilling can be implemented now. Those are the urgent priorities that are in front of us.

We need clarity about skills funding, which is static, despite money being received through the skills levy. The bill will do nothing to increase transparency for the employers or sectors that are looking for information on how those funds are being delivered. We have had cuts to the few measures, such as the workforce development fund, that have provided the flexibility beyond the apprenticeship system that is so valued by business. Furthermore, we have seen a gutting of the colleges’ ability to undertake anything that looks like flexibility. There have been cutbacks to the provision in the credit system, which is far too inflexible and does not enable colleges to deliver the flexibility that is needed.

However, it is not just that the Government has been slow and unclear. One of my fundamental issues is that this Government has an extremely poor track record of delivering structural reform, particularly in the absence of any clear strategy. To see that, we only need to look at the college sector. Many of our problems have arisen because of the poorly executed reform of our colleges, which has again been due to a lack of clarity. There is an insistence on full-time courses rather than part-time courses, yet, when we look at the economic needs that we have in front of us, we can see that flexible part-time courses are the training and skills provision that many employers are crying out for.

The bill does not even touch on many of the elements that Withers set out. There was a really important discussion about regional structures, which was the subject of a central recommendation from Withers, but there is nothing in the bill on how we can deliver regional approaches, despite the fact that they clearly deliver flexibility. Nor is there any sense of how we can have microcredentials or skills passports, which are also features of the flexible system that we want.

Above all else, the biggest fear is that we have a lack of clear industry voices in the system. It is hard to reach any conclusion other than that industry voices will be diluted by the measures that we see in the bill. With just two seats on the Scottish Funding Council—in a body that has a remit far broader than simply to deal with skills—it is difficult to see how industry will be able to shape, lead and take forward the skills agenda.

I am out of time. The bill is a missed opportunity. That is not to say that it will not have benefits, but, because of that missed opportunity and because of the lack of clarity, the Scottish Labour Party cannot support the bill tonight.

20:20  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-20484, in the name of Ben Macpherson, on the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Sc...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson) SNP
I am pleased to open this stage 3 debate, and I want to start by thanking my predecessor, Graeme Dey, for the remarkable amount of work that he did and for p...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
It is good to hear the minister’s thanks to Skills Development Scotland, but will he acknowledge that the Scottish Government left those working for Skills D...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I appreciate the member’s point. That is not my understanding of the situation, but, of course, I was not the minister during that period. However, I can say...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
The minister has said that he has thought about the bill a lot. I ask him to put on the record whether, at any point since he became minister, he gave any co...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I was educated in our system in Scotland to believe in the importance of critical thinking, and that will be crucial in the period ahead. Indeed, I apply it ...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
One of the missed opportunities with this bill was the opportunity to fully implement the recommendations from the von Prondzynski review in 2012. Some of us...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I thank the member for her intervention and her engagement on these matters, not just at stage 2 but more generally. The Government has considered what more ...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
I thank the many organisations and businesses that have provided helpful briefings ahead of the stage 3 debate, and I also thank them for their work at stage...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
I thank the many organisations and businesses that have provided helpful briefings ahead of the stage 3 debate, and I also thank them for their work at stage...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I reiterate my thanks to the Minister for Higher and Further Education for the way that he has approached the bill, which has been very useful. There has bee...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
The Greens will support the bill this evening, for the reasons that I outlined at stage 1 although, at that point, I expressed some scepticism that I will co...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I apologise if the member has moved on from the subject but, if we do not have a clear strategy, how will we know that the outcomes will be met?
Ross Greer Green
In part, ministers will have a far greater ability to direct the strategy when more of the objectives and purposes are sitting under one roof. There is a nee...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
The context for the bill is the Audit Scotland report from some years ago. That report was scathing in its criticism of all those involved in the sector and ...
Douglas Ross Con
It is my understanding that, just last month, SDS wrote to the minister to set out alternative views and opinions on possible reforms that would not be as co...
Willie Rennie LD
Douglas Ross is probably right, but I fear that it is too late to do that in this debate—we are so far down the track now. I hope that there is pragmatic par...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the open debate. 20:30
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
As in the stage 1 debate, I thank the committee clerks, the witnesses, the ministers—former and present—and the officials. I also thank my fellow committee m...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
Far be it from me to use my limited time to stand up and defend the Labour Party, but I have to take exception to what Jackie Dunbar said. She commented that...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I thank the member for taking this intervention, as I tried and hoped to get to my mouse quickly enough to intervene on Jackie Dunbar earlier. I wanted to as...
Douglas Ross Con
I agree with Pam Duncan-Glancy’s points. To stick with this issue for a little longer, I say to Jackie Dunbar that she should be less concerned about the mo...
Daniel Johnson Lab
As well as the lack of people giving encouraging evidence to the Education, Children and Young People Committee, the Economy and Fair Work Committee heard fr...
Douglas Ross Con
It should, and the Education, Children and Young People Committee put that in our report, too. My time is almost up, but I want to raise a couple more issue...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to winding-up speeches. There is a little time in hand. 20:39
Ross Greer Green
In my opening speech, Roz McCall intervened on me with what I think was a very fair challenge. If there is no clear strategic direction, how are we going to ...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Ross Greer Green
I will, in just a second. I point to an amendment of mine that was agreed to at stage 2 of the bill that requires the SFC to have due regard to the Governme...
Daniel Johnson Lab
I accept Ross Greer’s point about function, to a degree. However, there is also the SFC’s ability to combine functions. If we look at the experience of the u...
Ross Greer Green
To some extent, Daniel Johnson makes a fair point, but I do not think that that is all on the SFC. A lot of that ultimately comes down to decisions made by G...