Committee
Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 16 December 2025 [Draft]
16 Dec 2025 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
As we have heard, the amendments in group 1 relate to the scope of rights concerning the withdrawal of pupils from religious observance and/or religious and moral education. I will therefore speak to them as a group. Amendments 9 to 17 and 19, in the name of Maggie Chapman, would separate religious observance and religious and moral education, or RME, as it is known. That would mean that the parental right to withdraw would apply to religious observance only. Should those amendments be agreed to, it will no longer be possible to withdraw a child from RME. The amendments give effect to the committee’s recommendation in its stage 1 report that religious observance and RME should be separated, so that the ability to withdraw would apply only to religious observance. The committee made clear its recognition of the benefits of RME for community cohesion—particularly in the current times—and its importance as a core curriculum area. That view has also been echoed by a number of stakeholders, as we have heard this morning, including the Scottish Teachers Association of RME, and representatives of various faith and belief groups, including the Humanist Society Scotland. I agree with the committee and the stakeholders. As well as being a valuable academic discipline in itself, RME supports and enables children and young people to learn about and from different religions and worldviews and explore ethical questions. Contemporary RME is very different from the religious instruction of the past and in the context of the 1870s, when the parental right to withdraw was first introduced. RME is one of the eight core curriculum areas, and it is delivered in a manner that is objective, critical and pluralistic. The amendments would also remove the oddity of RME being the only curriculum area with an associated legal withdrawal right. However, I recognise the continuing need to provide non-statutory guidance and curriculum frameworks to safeguard the integrity of the subject. I will also be thoughtful about ensuring that those changes work in practice for denominational schools, as we have heard, which rightly have specific legal protections in relation to their faith character.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Adam)
SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 30th meeting in 2025 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee in session 6. We have received no apologies ...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 9, in the name of Maggie Chapman, is grouped with amendments 9A, 10 to 14, 20, 15 to 17, 44 and 19.
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
Thank you, convener, and good morning to the minister and officials. Thank you for being here this morning and for the conversations that we have had about t...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am grateful to Maggie Chapman for taking my intervention so early on in her contribution. I recognise her view and that of the Scottish Green Party on the ...
Maggie Chapman
Green
The Scottish Greens accept that, in many ways, the situation that we have in Scotland in which, as you outlined, we have such denominational positions, is al...
The Convener
SNP
I draw members’ attention to the procedural information in relation to the amendments in this group, as is set out in the groupings. I call Tess White to mo...
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Amendments 9A, 20 and 44, in the name of Stephen Kerr, would bring clarity and coherence to an area of education law that has become confused through age and...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I thank colleagues for their amendments in this group and for allowing us to have a wider debate about the scope of withdrawal rights and whether those shoul...
Maggie Chapman
Green
I appreciate Paul O’Kane’s comments about his frustration that we are discussing this now—that frustration was clearly expressed during the committee’s stage...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I thank Maggie Chapman for that intervention. I will certainly revisit the evidence that was taken, as I was not on the committee at that time. However, my u...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth)
SNP
As we have heard, the amendments in group 1 relate to the scope of rights concerning the withdrawal of pupils from religious observance and/or religious and ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth)
SNP
As we have heard, the amendments in group 1 relate to the scope of rights concerning the withdrawal of pupils from religious observance and/or religious and ...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I am keen to understand whether the cabinet secretary has thought about how that might happen. She will know, through her time as cabinet secretary and her c...
Jenny Gilruth
SNP
Following our discussion, I have discussed that matter in detail with officials. I give Mr O’Kane assurance that they have already started engagement with th...
Jenny Gilruth
SNP
Following our discussion, I have discussed that matter in detail with officials. I give Mr O’Kane assurance that they have already started engagement with th...
The Convener
SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to wind up.
Maggie Chapman
Green
I thank the cabinet secretary for her comments. I am sympathetic to some of the intention behind Stephen Kerr’s amendments but, like the cabinet secretary, I...
The Convener
SNP
I call Tess White to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 9A.
Tess White
Con
What has just happened in this first group shows that there are fundamental issues that should have been ironed out before we got to this stage. We are talki...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 9A be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast)...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9A disagreed to.
The Convener
SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to press or withdraw amendment 9.
Maggie Chapman
Green
I press amendment 9.
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 9 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9 agreed to. Amendments 10 to 14 moved—Maggie Chapman. 10:00
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9 agreed to. Amendments 10 to 14 moved—Maggie Chapman. 10:00
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 10 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...