Committee
Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 16 December 2025 [Draft]
16 Dec 2025 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I appreciate Paul O’Kane’s comments about his frustration that we are discussing this now—that frustration was clearly expressed during the committee’s stage 1 evidence gathering.
During that evidence gathering, it was clear that even representatives from the denominational schools that you have just mentioned support the separation of religious observance and education. There is frustration that that broader education or “instruction”, as the 1980 act calls it, is conflated with, essentially, worship. Those two things remain and should be distinct, and denominational leaders and teachers were comfortable with that. Some of them said, “There is that distinction and we can make it work.” I am interested in hearing Paul O’Kane’s response to that.
09:45In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Adam)
SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 30th meeting in 2025 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee in session 6. We have received no apologies ...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 9, in the name of Maggie Chapman, is grouped with amendments 9A, 10 to 14, 20, 15 to 17, 44 and 19.
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
Thank you, convener, and good morning to the minister and officials. Thank you for being here this morning and for the conversations that we have had about t...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am grateful to Maggie Chapman for taking my intervention so early on in her contribution. I recognise her view and that of the Scottish Green Party on the ...
Maggie Chapman
Green
The Scottish Greens accept that, in many ways, the situation that we have in Scotland in which, as you outlined, we have such denominational positions, is al...
The Convener
SNP
I draw members’ attention to the procedural information in relation to the amendments in this group, as is set out in the groupings. I call Tess White to mo...
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Amendments 9A, 20 and 44, in the name of Stephen Kerr, would bring clarity and coherence to an area of education law that has become confused through age and...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I thank colleagues for their amendments in this group and for allowing us to have a wider debate about the scope of withdrawal rights and whether those shoul...
Maggie Chapman
Green
I appreciate Paul O’Kane’s comments about his frustration that we are discussing this now—that frustration was clearly expressed during the committee’s stage...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I thank Maggie Chapman for that intervention. I will certainly revisit the evidence that was taken, as I was not on the committee at that time. However, my u...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth)
SNP
As we have heard, the amendments in group 1 relate to the scope of rights concerning the withdrawal of pupils from religious observance and/or religious and ...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I am keen to understand whether the cabinet secretary has thought about how that might happen. She will know, through her time as cabinet secretary and her c...
Jenny Gilruth
SNP
Following our discussion, I have discussed that matter in detail with officials. I give Mr O’Kane assurance that they have already started engagement with th...
The Convener
SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to wind up.
Maggie Chapman
Green
I thank the cabinet secretary for her comments. I am sympathetic to some of the intention behind Stephen Kerr’s amendments but, like the cabinet secretary, I...
The Convener
SNP
I call Tess White to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 9A.
Tess White
Con
What has just happened in this first group shows that there are fundamental issues that should have been ironed out before we got to this stage. We are talki...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 9A be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast)...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9A disagreed to.
The Convener
SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to press or withdraw amendment 9.
Maggie Chapman
Green
I press amendment 9.
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 9 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9 agreed to. Amendments 10 to 14 moved—Maggie Chapman. 10:00
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 10 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 10 agreed to.
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 11 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...