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Committee

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 16 December 2025 [Draft]

16 Dec 2025 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Chapman, Maggie Green North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

The Scottish Greens accept that, in many ways, the situation that we have in Scotland in which, as you outlined, we have such denominational positions, is almost unique. Although denominational schools exist, we need to have very clear mechanisms for ensuring that children and young people’s rights are protected, regardless of where they go to school. It is the principal position of the Scottish Greens that we should have a total separation of church and state.

The 1980 act conflates religious observance with religious education, also called religious instruction. Religious observance comprises those acts of worship when one faith is prioritised. Religious and moral education—RME—is quite different. Learning about diverse religions and belief systems is an essential part of a broad education in a diverse society. Children and young people have a right to a well-rounded education, and their parent or guardian should not be able to override that. Young people cannot withdraw or be withdrawn from maths, science, history or English. That is for good reason—those subjects provide key knowledge bases and the skills that young people need to be successful learners, confident individuals, responsible citizens and effective contributors to society, as the curriculum for excellence wants them to be.

Religious and moral education is similarly vital in our view, and teachers agree. Dr Douglas Hutchison of the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland said:

“religious and moral education should be seen as a curricular subject in the same way as any other subject.”

He continued:

“the idea that in a liberal democracy there is no place in the curriculum for religious education and there should be a right to withdraw from it does not make sense in 2025.”—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 7 October 2025; c 27.]

I am aware of the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland’s queries about how some of the amendments are worded, particularly in relation to the word “instruction”. The commissioner refers to the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child’s general comment 20, which distinguishes between religious education and “religious instruction”, and states that there should be a right to withdraw from the latter, not from the former. The wording of amendment 9 was worked up collaboratively with the Scottish Government—for which I am grateful—but, ultimately, it reflects the original language of the 1980 act, and, as a consequence, the bill’s approach of amending that language rather than the alternative approach of re-legislating, which is proposed by the commissioner. I share some of those concerns about language, but I ask the committee to support the principle of my amendment 9 and its consequential amendments. I will work with the committee and others if we need to fix any wording for stage 3.

I move amendment 9.

In the same item of business

The Convener (Karen Adam) SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 30th meeting in 2025 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee in session 6. We have received no apologies ...
The Convener SNP
Amendment 9, in the name of Maggie Chapman, is grouped with amendments 9A, 10 to 14, 20, 15 to 17, 44 and 19.
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
Thank you, convener, and good morning to the minister and officials. Thank you for being here this morning and for the conversations that we have had about t...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am grateful to Maggie Chapman for taking my intervention so early on in her contribution. I recognise her view and that of the Scottish Green Party on the ...
Maggie Chapman Green
The Scottish Greens accept that, in many ways, the situation that we have in Scotland in which, as you outlined, we have such denominational positions, is al...
The Convener SNP
I draw members’ attention to the procedural information in relation to the amendments in this group, as is set out in the groupings. I call Tess White to mo...
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Amendments 9A, 20 and 44, in the name of Stephen Kerr, would bring clarity and coherence to an area of education law that has become confused through age and...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I thank colleagues for their amendments in this group and for allowing us to have a wider debate about the scope of withdrawal rights and whether those shoul...
Maggie Chapman Green
I appreciate Paul O’Kane’s comments about his frustration that we are discussing this now—that frustration was clearly expressed during the committee’s stage...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I thank Maggie Chapman for that intervention. I will certainly revisit the evidence that was taken, as I was not on the committee at that time. However, my u...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
As we have heard, the amendments in group 1 relate to the scope of rights concerning the withdrawal of pupils from religious observance and/or religious and ...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I am keen to understand whether the cabinet secretary has thought about how that might happen. She will know, through her time as cabinet secretary and her c...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Following our discussion, I have discussed that matter in detail with officials. I give Mr O’Kane assurance that they have already started engagement with th...
The Convener SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to wind up.
Maggie Chapman Green
I thank the cabinet secretary for her comments. I am sympathetic to some of the intention behind Stephen Kerr’s amendments but, like the cabinet secretary, I...
The Convener SNP
I call Tess White to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 9A.
Tess White Con
What has just happened in this first group shows that there are fundamental issues that should have been ironed out before we got to this stage. We are talki...
The Convener SNP
The question is, that amendment 9A be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast)...
The Convener SNP
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9A disagreed to.
The Convener SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to press or withdraw amendment 9.
Maggie Chapman Green
I press amendment 9.
The Convener SNP
The question is, that amendment 9 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...
The Convener SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9 agreed to. Amendments 10 to 14 moved—Maggie Chapman. 10:00
The Convener SNP
The question is, that amendment 10 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...
The Convener SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 10 agreed to.
The Convener SNP
The question is, that amendment 11 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...