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Committee

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 16 December 2025 [Draft]

16 Dec 2025 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Chapman, Maggie Green North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

Thank you, convener, and good morning to the minister and officials. Thank you for being here this morning and for the conversations that we have had about the bill in recent months.

Before I turn to my amendments, I want to briefly outline the approach of the Scottish Greens to the bill as a whole. Last year, we enshrined the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child in Scots law. Doing that was not the end, but the start of a process of protecting the rights of children and young people. We have committed to ensuring that every service that we provide for a child or young person, from school to social security, or from care to the children’s hearings system, should put their rights under the UN convention front and centre. Where we have failed to do so, children and young people should be empowered to speak up and call for change, and we, as policy makers, should have to respond.

The bill before us today reflects what Together (Scottish Alliance for Children’s Rights), the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland and others have been saying about the Scottish Government’s approach to children and young people’s rights more generally—namely, that it comes from a place of the best of intentions but does not go nearly far enough. It is fundamental to the convention that the rights of children and young people should exist independently of those of adults, yet the bill allows for children to opt out of religious activities in schools only once their parent or guardian has already made a decision. Indeed, part 2 of the bill creates a framework for adults to override the convention only a year after it has come into force.

If we are truly to enshrine the convention, not only in law but in the everyday practice of the services that children and young people receive, we need to look again at quite large parts of the bill.

I turn to the amendments in this group. The principal amendment in my name is amendment 9, to which my other amendments are consequential. Like the original Education (Scotland) Act 1980, the bill conflates religious observance with religious education. Religious observance involves acts of worship, especially when one faith is prioritised over another. It should have no place in state schools. The Scottish Green position is quite clear: there should be a separation of church and state.

In the same item of business

The Convener (Karen Adam) SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 30th meeting in 2025 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee in session 6. We have received no apologies ...
The Convener SNP
Amendment 9, in the name of Maggie Chapman, is grouped with amendments 9A, 10 to 14, 20, 15 to 17, 44 and 19.
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
Thank you, convener, and good morning to the minister and officials. Thank you for being here this morning and for the conversations that we have had about t...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am grateful to Maggie Chapman for taking my intervention so early on in her contribution. I recognise her view and that of the Scottish Green Party on the ...
Maggie Chapman Green
The Scottish Greens accept that, in many ways, the situation that we have in Scotland in which, as you outlined, we have such denominational positions, is al...
The Convener SNP
I draw members’ attention to the procedural information in relation to the amendments in this group, as is set out in the groupings. I call Tess White to mo...
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Amendments 9A, 20 and 44, in the name of Stephen Kerr, would bring clarity and coherence to an area of education law that has become confused through age and...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I thank colleagues for their amendments in this group and for allowing us to have a wider debate about the scope of withdrawal rights and whether those shoul...
Maggie Chapman Green
I appreciate Paul O’Kane’s comments about his frustration that we are discussing this now—that frustration was clearly expressed during the committee’s stage...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I thank Maggie Chapman for that intervention. I will certainly revisit the evidence that was taken, as I was not on the committee at that time. However, my u...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
As we have heard, the amendments in group 1 relate to the scope of rights concerning the withdrawal of pupils from religious observance and/or religious and ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
As we have heard, the amendments in group 1 relate to the scope of rights concerning the withdrawal of pupils from religious observance and/or religious and ...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I am keen to understand whether the cabinet secretary has thought about how that might happen. She will know, through her time as cabinet secretary and her c...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Following our discussion, I have discussed that matter in detail with officials. I give Mr O’Kane assurance that they have already started engagement with th...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Following our discussion, I have discussed that matter in detail with officials. I give Mr O’Kane assurance that they have already started engagement with th...
The Convener SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to wind up.
Maggie Chapman Green
I thank the cabinet secretary for her comments. I am sympathetic to some of the intention behind Stephen Kerr’s amendments but, like the cabinet secretary, I...
The Convener SNP
I call Tess White to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 9A.
Tess White Con
What has just happened in this first group shows that there are fundamental issues that should have been ironed out before we got to this stage. We are talki...
The Convener SNP
The question is, that amendment 9A be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast)...
The Convener SNP
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9A disagreed to.
The Convener SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to press or withdraw amendment 9.
Maggie Chapman Green
I press amendment 9.
The Convener SNP
The question is, that amendment 9 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...
The Convener SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9 agreed to. Amendments 10 to 14 moved—Maggie Chapman. 10:00
The Convener SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9 agreed to. Amendments 10 to 14 moved—Maggie Chapman. 10:00
The Convener SNP
The question is, that amendment 10 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...