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Committee

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 16 December 2025 [Draft]

16 Dec 2025 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Adam, Karen SNP Banffshire and Buchan Coast Watch on SPTV

Good morning and welcome to the 30th meeting in 2025 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee in session 6. We have received no apologies this morning.

Our first and only agenda item is stage 2 consideration of the Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill. I will briefly explain for anyone watching the procedure that we will be following in today’s meeting.

Members should have with them a copy of the bill, the marshalled list and the groupings. These documents are available on the bill webpage on the Scottish Parliament’s website for anyone observing.

I will call each amendment individually in the order on the marshalled list. The member who has lodged the amendment should either move it or say, “Not moved” when it is called. If that member does not move the amendment, any other member present may do so.

The groupings of amendments set out the order in which they will be debated. There will be one debate on each group of amendments; in each debate, I will call the member who lodged the first amendment in the group to speak to and move that amendment and to speak to all other amendments in that group. I will then call other members with amendments in the group to speak to—but not move—their amendments, and to speak to other amendments in the group, if they wish.

I will then call any other member who wishes to speak in the debate. Members wishing to speak should indicate as much by catching my attention or the attention of the clerk. I will then call the cabinet secretary, if she has not already spoken in the debate.

Finally, I will call the member who moved the first amendment in the group to wind up and to indicate whether he or she wishes to press or to withdraw the amendment. If the amendment is pressed, I will put the question on it. If a member wishes to withdraw an amendment after it has been moved and debated, I will ask whether any member present objects, and if there is an objection, I will immediately put the question on the amendment. Later amendments in the group are not debated again when they are reached. If they are moved, I will put the question on them straight away.

If there is a division, only committee members are entitled to vote. Voting is by a show of hands, and it is important that members keep their hands raised clearly until the clerk has recorded their names. If there is a tie, I must exercise a casting vote.

The committee is also required to consider and decide on each section and schedule of the bill as well as the long title, and I will put the question on each of those provisions at the appropriate point. Finally, I should note that the aim is to complete stage 2 consideration today.

Section 1—Pupil’s involvement in decision about withdrawal from religious instruction or religious observance

In the same item of business

The Convener (Karen Adam) SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 30th meeting in 2025 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee in session 6. We have received no apologies ...
The Convener SNP
Amendment 9, in the name of Maggie Chapman, is grouped with amendments 9A, 10 to 14, 20, 15 to 17, 44 and 19.
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
Thank you, convener, and good morning to the minister and officials. Thank you for being here this morning and for the conversations that we have had about t...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am grateful to Maggie Chapman for taking my intervention so early on in her contribution. I recognise her view and that of the Scottish Green Party on the ...
Maggie Chapman Green
The Scottish Greens accept that, in many ways, the situation that we have in Scotland in which, as you outlined, we have such denominational positions, is al...
The Convener SNP
I draw members’ attention to the procedural information in relation to the amendments in this group, as is set out in the groupings. I call Tess White to mo...
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Amendments 9A, 20 and 44, in the name of Stephen Kerr, would bring clarity and coherence to an area of education law that has become confused through age and...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I thank colleagues for their amendments in this group and for allowing us to have a wider debate about the scope of withdrawal rights and whether those shoul...
Maggie Chapman Green
I appreciate Paul O’Kane’s comments about his frustration that we are discussing this now—that frustration was clearly expressed during the committee’s stage...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I thank Maggie Chapman for that intervention. I will certainly revisit the evidence that was taken, as I was not on the committee at that time. However, my u...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
As we have heard, the amendments in group 1 relate to the scope of rights concerning the withdrawal of pupils from religious observance and/or religious and ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
As we have heard, the amendments in group 1 relate to the scope of rights concerning the withdrawal of pupils from religious observance and/or religious and ...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I am keen to understand whether the cabinet secretary has thought about how that might happen. She will know, through her time as cabinet secretary and her c...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Following our discussion, I have discussed that matter in detail with officials. I give Mr O’Kane assurance that they have already started engagement with th...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Following our discussion, I have discussed that matter in detail with officials. I give Mr O’Kane assurance that they have already started engagement with th...
The Convener SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to wind up.
Maggie Chapman Green
I thank the cabinet secretary for her comments. I am sympathetic to some of the intention behind Stephen Kerr’s amendments but, like the cabinet secretary, I...
The Convener SNP
I call Tess White to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 9A.
Tess White Con
What has just happened in this first group shows that there are fundamental issues that should have been ironed out before we got to this stage. We are talki...
The Convener SNP
The question is, that amendment 9A be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast)...
The Convener SNP
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9A disagreed to.
The Convener SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to press or withdraw amendment 9.
Maggie Chapman Green
I press amendment 9.
The Convener SNP
The question is, that amendment 9 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...
The Convener SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9 agreed to. Amendments 10 to 14 moved—Maggie Chapman. 10:00
The Convener SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9 agreed to. Amendments 10 to 14 moved—Maggie Chapman. 10:00
The Convener SNP
The question is, that amendment 10 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...