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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 16 December 2025 [Draft]

16 Dec 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

I am pleased to close the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour. I recognise that I have come somewhat late to the process at stage 3, but I have been following the bill because of my interest in it. We have heard a lot in the debate about the genesis of the bill, and how it has developed since the initial concerns that were raised at stage 1 through the work by a number of colleagues across the chamber to refine the bill and get it into the place that it is in today, as we consider it at this final stage.

I join colleagues in paying tribute to Liz Smith for her work and her dedication, for trying to improve the bill at each stage, and in recognising the significant challenges that remain and will have to be dealt with in the guidance that the Government will produce.

The first thing to say in summing up is that we all recognise the significant impact and contribution that outdoor education and residential outdoor education make to children and young people in Scotland. We join in paying tribute to all those who have joined us today in the public gallery, who are specialists and experts in that field and who have given evidence at every stage of the bill as to the impact of their work.

We have heard a lot today about the importance of protecting those organisations and specialisms, and about the challenges that have been posed, not least by the pandemic. We need to ensure that we have a strong sector of outdoor residential education in Scotland. That is very important.

It was nice to hear some snippets of personal experience from people who have undertaken outdoor education. I say to Ross Greer that another interesting fact about Castle Toward is that it served as HMS Brontosaurus in the second world war, and that Winston Churchill was a frequent visitor—something that Ross Greer can perhaps share in his next engagement with Piers Morgan.

However, what is important is that everybody recognises the value of the bill. That said, it is clear that significant challenges remain, not least those that have been outlined in relation to the financial considerations and the pressure that is on local authorities.

In my exchange with the minister, I referenced some of the remaining concerns of school leaders. Those are focused on a number of challenges to do with staffing, including ensuring sufficient staffing and cover; ensuring that a significant contribution is made by those parents who can do so; and ensuring that people do not feel that they cannot make that contribution.

The minister and I were councillors in Renfrewshire and East Renfrewshire. I do not know whether the minister served on the Renfrewshire Educational Trust when she was a councillor, but very often it was such bodies that were required to provide the additional funding that was often required for residential outdoor trips. What is clear is that we need to get the balance right between those who can make a contribution and those who need that additional support, which will come from the Government. I recognise much of what has been said about the challenges in the financial memorandums leading up to this position.

Some of the concerns that have been raised by school leaders and teachers are perhaps reflective of wider issues that exist in Scottish education. After 18 years of the current Government, there are a number of significant challenges, which we will debate on other days. However, those are the issues that are at the forefront of the minds of many headteachers and teachers, and I think that that is being reflected. I think that they would say that they absolutely recognise the importance of outdoor education and the importance of doing something about it, but that does not negate the other challenges that they have to deal with on a daily basis. The member has absolutely recognised that in terms of her leadership on the bill.

I am conscious of time. We will of course support the bill. The principle is absolutely right. What we must do now, as with any legislation, is ensure that the guidance is robust, the data is well gathered and the finance is appropriate in order to support local authorities and individual schools to be able to deliver a meaningful outdoor residential experience for every child in Scotland, and to ensure that that can be done for many generations to come.

17:44  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-20138, in the name of Liz Smith, on the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill at stage ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Throughout all my 16 years as a secondary schoolteacher and my subsequent two decades as a parliamentarian, I have been firmly of the view that outdoor educa...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
The Government will not have to pay the full amount, but I have read the supplementary financial memorandum and it does not give a figure for what the Govern...
Liz Smith Con
The costs have not changed since the original discussion of that issue. However, as John Mason knows, at stage 2 we added to the bill a period for its staged...
The Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise (Natalie Don-Innes) SNP
Many people will have been privileged, in their youth, to have enjoyed time away from home at a residential outdoor education facility, often in spectacular ...
John Mason Ind
I want to ask the minister the same question that I asked Liz Smith. The minister talked about cost. Does she have any idea what the Government might have to...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
Throughout the bill process, I have been clear about the need to gather data to enable us to have a true understanding of the full costs associated with it. ...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I recognise what the minister says about the strength of engagement, but does she recognise that everyone across the chamber will have had communication, eve...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you the time back for taking that intervention, minister.
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I very much recognise those concerns, which I have laid out very clearly to members in the chamber and to committee several times. In fact, I engaged directl...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I have the easiest job in the Parliament tonight, which is to open this debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives, because my Scottish Conservative coll...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As we conclude this debate, I do not want to dwell on the journey that the bill has gone through and mention things such as financial memorandums; I want to ...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I follow Martin Whitfield in paying tribute to Liz Smith. At the risk of potentially giving members of my party a bit of buyer’s remorse in relation to their...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I thank Ross Greer for reminding me how old I am. He was in primary 7 in 2006, which was just yesterday for me. I also thank all the staff in the Parliament...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Willie Rennie LD
On cue, minister.
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
We spoke at length at committee about the number of fantastic outdoor educational opportunities—fair enough; they are not all residential—that many of our sc...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you the time back for that intervention, Mr Rennie.
Willie Rennie LD
I recognise that the minister tried to convince me that progress was made, but whether progress was actually made is another matter. In any case, the working...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We now move to the open debate. 17:23
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate Liz Smith. I know the work that is needed for a member’s bill. It involves testing the member’s commitment and dealing with obstacles th...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I am delighted to stand in support of my colleague and friend Liz Smith’s Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill. Sometimes, we lose sight ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
I hate to be the wet blanket at the party; however, I will start by thanking Liz Smith very much for introducing the bill. I agree with virtually everything ...
Brian Whittle Con
Does John Mason agree that, in addition, that financial memorandum does not include spend to save over a long period of time and that, if we had started 10 y...
John Mason Ind
I agree that there is money to save, but it raises the whole question about preventative spend. We need to spend £1 today, but where is that £1 going to come...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to closing speeches. I call Ross Greer. 17:35
Ross Greer Green
In my opening speech, I mentioned the value of learning about our natural environment in our natural environment and the knowledge and skills that are accumu...
The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
Thank you. I call Paul O’Kane. 17:39
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to close the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour. I recognise that I have come somewhat late to the process at stage 3, but I have been followin...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
In the time that I have served on the Parliament’s Education, Children and Young People Committee, there has been a recurring theme that teachers, parents an...