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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 16 December 2025 [Draft]

16 Dec 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill
Mason, John Ind Glasgow Shettleston Watch on SPTV

I agree that there is money to save, but it raises the whole question about preventative spend. We need to spend £1 today, but where is that £1 going to come from? However, Brian Whittle’s general point is absolutely correct.

Paragraph 24 of the supplementary financial memorandum, which deals with costs for parents and carers, says:

“the precise cost of the Bill’s provisions on parents and carers is impossible to estimate”.

That means that neither is the cost to the Government estimated.

No one is asking that the FM or supplementary FM give precise costs, but they should give best estimates. It causes me considerable concern that the bill is not associated with even estimated costs for the Government. We are faced with passing a bill today with no idea of what the costs are likely to be. As members will have seen, I asked both the member in charge of the bill and the minister for an estimate of costs, but neither was able to give one.

I am somewhat surprised that the Government has agreed to that. It very much goes against the whole principle of financial memorandums, which require the best estimates of all costs.

The Finance and Public Administration Committee has not discussed the issue recently, but I feel that this sets a difficult precedent. Although I fully support the intentions of Liz Smith and her bill, I have reservations about voting for such an open-ended blank cheque when it comes to the finances. We are asking for trouble after the election, when a new Government will be faced with demands that it might or might not be able to meet. Therefore, it is my intention to abstain at the final vote. I regret that I feel that that is my only option, for the reasons that I have given, and I hope that I am proved wrong.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-20138, in the name of Liz Smith, on the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill at stage ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Throughout all my 16 years as a secondary schoolteacher and my subsequent two decades as a parliamentarian, I have been firmly of the view that outdoor educa...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
The Government will not have to pay the full amount, but I have read the supplementary financial memorandum and it does not give a figure for what the Govern...
Liz Smith Con
The costs have not changed since the original discussion of that issue. However, as John Mason knows, at stage 2 we added to the bill a period for its staged...
The Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise (Natalie Don-Innes) SNP
Many people will have been privileged, in their youth, to have enjoyed time away from home at a residential outdoor education facility, often in spectacular ...
John Mason Ind
I want to ask the minister the same question that I asked Liz Smith. The minister talked about cost. Does she have any idea what the Government might have to...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
Throughout the bill process, I have been clear about the need to gather data to enable us to have a true understanding of the full costs associated with it. ...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I recognise what the minister says about the strength of engagement, but does she recognise that everyone across the chamber will have had communication, eve...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you the time back for taking that intervention, minister.
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I very much recognise those concerns, which I have laid out very clearly to members in the chamber and to committee several times. In fact, I engaged directl...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I have the easiest job in the Parliament tonight, which is to open this debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives, because my Scottish Conservative coll...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As we conclude this debate, I do not want to dwell on the journey that the bill has gone through and mention things such as financial memorandums; I want to ...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I follow Martin Whitfield in paying tribute to Liz Smith. At the risk of potentially giving members of my party a bit of buyer’s remorse in relation to their...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I thank Ross Greer for reminding me how old I am. He was in primary 7 in 2006, which was just yesterday for me. I also thank all the staff in the Parliament...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Willie Rennie LD
On cue, minister.
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
We spoke at length at committee about the number of fantastic outdoor educational opportunities—fair enough; they are not all residential—that many of our sc...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you the time back for that intervention, Mr Rennie.
Willie Rennie LD
I recognise that the minister tried to convince me that progress was made, but whether progress was actually made is another matter. In any case, the working...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We now move to the open debate. 17:23
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate Liz Smith. I know the work that is needed for a member’s bill. It involves testing the member’s commitment and dealing with obstacles th...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I am delighted to stand in support of my colleague and friend Liz Smith’s Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill. Sometimes, we lose sight ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
I hate to be the wet blanket at the party; however, I will start by thanking Liz Smith very much for introducing the bill. I agree with virtually everything ...
Brian Whittle Con
Does John Mason agree that, in addition, that financial memorandum does not include spend to save over a long period of time and that, if we had started 10 y...
John Mason Ind
I agree that there is money to save, but it raises the whole question about preventative spend. We need to spend £1 today, but where is that £1 going to come...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to closing speeches. I call Ross Greer. 17:35
Ross Greer Green
In my opening speech, I mentioned the value of learning about our natural environment in our natural environment and the knowledge and skills that are accumu...
The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
Thank you. I call Paul O’Kane. 17:39
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to close the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour. I recognise that I have come somewhat late to the process at stage 3, but I have been followin...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
In the time that I have served on the Parliament’s Education, Children and Young People Committee, there has been a recurring theme that teachers, parents an...