Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 10 December 2025
10 Dec 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Social Security Spending
The evidence shows that, unfortunately, the two-child cap just led to more people living in poverty; it did not do anything to incentivise people into employment. I agree that the way out of poverty is through employment, but the policies that the previous UK Government introduced did not manage to achieve any of that.
The Labour amendment sets out the challenges clearly. Audit Scotland has raised serious concerns about a £2 billion funding gap in devolved social security spending by 2029-30, and it has highlighted the absence of any detailed Scottish Government plan to deal with that.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-20056, in the name of Alexander Stewart, on controlling the rising benefits bill in Scotland. I invite me...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Once again, it falls to the Scottish Conservatives to highlight the ever-increasing benefits bill that Scottish taxpayers face. My motion highlights the unsu...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Ind)
Ind
Would the member like to outline which devolved benefits he would take away and how he would do that?
Alexander Stewart
Con
We need to have a discussion about universality in benefits. We have already spoken about the SNP’s light touch when it comes to keeping records on benefits,...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice (Shirley-Anne Somerville)
SNP
Can the member tell the chamber whether the Scottish Conservatives voted for or against all of the secondary legislation that built in the eligibility for AD...
Alexander Stewart
Con
I think that you will find that the Conservatives did vote for it, but you have to understand that your light-touch approach, which I will come on to speak a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Always speak through the chair.
Alexander Stewart
Con
We will speak about that light-touch approach and we can discuss the number of people who, as part of the benefits process, have been receiving funds in erro...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Alexander Stewart
Con
I am running out of time. If that decision does not sum up the SNP Government’s high-tax, high-welfare approach to government, I do not know what does. Hav...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
I call Shirley-Anne Somerville to speak to and move amendment S6M-20056.3. 14:55
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice (Shirley-Anne Somerville)
SNP
We have just heard the Scottish Conservatives set out an apparent repudiation of the benefits system that this Parliament voted for unanimously, and which I ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Does the cabinet secretary recognise that there is considerable public support for the two-child cap, because it is seen to be about the incentives that are ...
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
I thank Liz Smith for her question, but it is important to recognise that, contrary to some of the incorrect narratives that are currently in play, the Resol...
Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
I will make some progress, if Mr Hoy will forgive me. Who knows what will happen in our lives? A marriage break-up or caring responsibilities could make it ...
Craig Hoy
Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
If Mr Hoy had wanted more time, he should have given the whole afternoon to this debate, and I would have been delighted to discuss the issue with him in fur...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I begin by addressing the framing of the debate. Titling the motion “Controlling the Rising Benefits Bill” is not just unhelpful; it misunderstands the purpo...
Liz Smith
Con
The debate ought to be about incentives. It is absolutely fine that the current benefit system provides for those who are most in need. The issue is the syst...
Claire Baker
Lab
The evidence shows that, unfortunately, the two-child cap just led to more people living in poverty; it did not do anything to incentivise people into employ...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
Will Claire Baker give way on that point?
Claire Baker
Lab
I am very short of time—sorry. The Scottish Government has chosen to expand entitlements, but those choices must be matched with credible financial planning...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
Our social security system embodies the duty that we have to one another. It provides a best start grant when a new Scot is born and the Scottish child payme...
Craig Hoy
Con
Does Maggie Chapman accept that the interplay between universal credit and the Scottish child payment is resulting in some people choosing not to work additi...
Maggie Chapman
Green
Quite frankly, I think that that has more to do with problems with universal credit than anything else—the restrictions that are placed on people who want to...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Please resume your seat for a second, Ms Chapman. Unbelievably, a conversation is going on from a sedentary position between two members of front-bench team...
Maggie Chapman
Green
Of those who have applied for ADP in the past year, 63 per cent have been rejected, which is worse than for PIP—the independent Scottish Fiscal Commission an...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD)
LD
I want a caring system that respects people when they are in need. That is why the Liberal Democrats supported the Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018, and w...
Stephen Kerr
Con
Will Willie Rennie give way?