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Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 03 December 2025 [Draft]

03 Dec 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Macpherson, Ben SNP Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

We will discuss the apprenticeship levy in later groups of amendments, but the fact is that the situation is not as Stephen Kerr sets out. It is more complicated and challenging than that, but I will comment on the apprenticeship levy specifically later.

Last week, I acknowledged, in answer to a general question in the chamber, that there is unmet demand. Indeed, one of the reasons for taking this primary legislation through the Parliament is to have a better arrangement for meeting unmet demand in the period ahead. I would also point to the support that the bill has had from the Federation of Small Businesses, which represents the many businesses in the SME sector that are very supportive of the bill. The current system is quite challenging for some SME businesses, and we want to improve the system for them. That is one of the strong reasons why the Parliament passing the bill is the right thing to do, and I look forward to Stephen Kerr’s support at the end of stage 3.

On a wider point, I do appreciate that Stephen Kerr and I did not have any engagement ahead of stage 2. Obviously, I engage with all members of the committee, but, if Stephen Kerr would like to engage with me ahead of stage 3, I would be happy to facilitate that and to listen to him.

Amendment 108, in the name of Miles Briggs, would have no effect; the SFC would, in any case, have to specify the amount of grant that it awarded to a local authority. The bill gives ministers the power to set out in regulations the criteria for a person to be a training provider, and SDS funds a broad range of such providers. Indeed, sometimes the employer is the training provider.

Amendment 110, in the name of Miles Briggs, would potentially preclude some employers and other forms of training providers.

Amendments 111, 112 and 118, also in the name of Miles Briggs, also attempt to delegate the SFC’s duty to secure Scottish apprenticeships and work-based learning to colleges and to do so on a regional basis. The amendments would allow colleges to act as managing agents, and they attempt to restrict the managing agent fee that colleges can retain.

The bill does not prevent a college from acting as a training provider, and, therefore, as a managing agent, but it would be a very significant departure from current arrangements and would lack the statutory processes and safeguards that apply to the SFC in managing funding. There is also a danger that there would not be coherent provision across Scotland. I am supportive of creating a strong regional partnership, something that I know that Miles Briggs is exercised about, but I believe that that can be done through the bill’s existing provisions and the 2005 act. Therefore, with respect, I am not able to support the amendments.

Amendment 113, in the name of Daniel Johnson, embodies reasonable points about value for money, transparency and fair work practices. However, it is not clear whether the amendment would exclude colleges, given that they are public sector bodies. It is also unclear how the SFC would assess what constitutes value for money and what mechanisms would be used to assess transparent spend. In any event, it is likely that to prescribe fair work practices in such a way would be beyond the legislative competence of the Government and the Parliament, as we discussed last week in relation to other amendments.

I do agree with the intent behind amendment 114, in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy, but I ask her not to move it, so that I can consider the framing ahead of stage 3 in relation to amending section 20 of the 2005 act.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Our next item is continued consideration at stage 2 of the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome back Ben Macph...
The Convener Con
Amendment 94, in the name of Stephen Kerr, is grouped with amendments 9, 10, 95, 30, 96 to 102, 31, 11, 32, 103 to 109, 33, 110 to 112, 12, 113 to 120, 34 an...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Good morning. I will speak to amendments 94, 96 to 100 and 119, which are in my name and which all relate to the funding of Scottish apprenticeships and work...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Amendment 94 refers to “a publicly-funded Scottish apprenticeship”. Does that mean in the public sector? Would it mean that local authorities would have to...
Stephen Kerr Con
No. I am referring to the mechanism by which places are funded rather than where the places are located, whether in the public or private sector.
John Mason Ind
We could not insist on the private sector creating apprenticeships if it did not want or need them. Would it therefore fall to the public sector to provide t...
Stephen Kerr Con
I think that John Mason will find that there is great demand for apprenticeships. Currently, that demand is unmet. If you listen to employers, as I am sure J...
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
My understanding is that the term “work-based learning” is intended to cover all types of activities currently undertaken as foundation apprenticeships. Howe...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson) SNP
I will come to that in my remarks, if that is okay.
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
Good morning. My amendment 95 would add a new definition of work-based learning—it would make it clear that foundation apprenticeships are included in the st...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
On amendment 103, will the member explain the 75 per cent figure and what the current split is, so that we can get an understanding of that?
Miles Briggs Con
I worked with Colleges Scotland on the amendment, and 75 per cent is the capacity that it would expect to be able to deliver, leaving 25 per cent for other p...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
For my four amendments in this group, I have been working with SELECT—Scotland’s electrical trade association. Amendment 30 specifies that Scottish ministers...
Ben Macpherson SNP
The dialogue that we have had so far this morning speaks again to the strong alignment across the Parliament and the committee to improve the system, which i...
Willie Rennie LD
If the minister has finished with Jackie Dunbar’s amendments, I want to make a point about my amendments 31 to 33. They are not about limiting fees, but abou...
Ben Macpherson SNP
In the bill, a managing agent is a training provider, and I value the important role that training providers and managing agents play in the current system. ...
Stephen Kerr Con
Minister, do you accept that this approach will create uncertainty in the funding of apprenticeships? In effect, you are saying that all of this will be done...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I refer back to what I said about the letter of guidance and the stage 2 discussions that we have had on how the apprenticeship committee will direct the SFC...
Stephen Kerr Con
Does the minister accept that there is quite a lot of unmet demand, especially in the SME sector? Does he also understand that hundreds of millions of pounds...
Ben Macpherson SNP
We will discuss the apprenticeship levy in later groups of amendments, but the fact is that the situation is not as Stephen Kerr sets out. It is more complic...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I have been pulling up the exact detail of amendment 113. Although I appreciate the conversation that we had last week on fair work practices, does the minis...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for that intervention. She and other members will recall that amendment 73 in group 5 covered similar ground, and the issue was sub...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Will the minister take another intervention?
Ben Macpherson SNP
I would like to make progress, if that is okay. The reform to the skills landscape that we are taking forward does not anticipate skills planning to be some...
The Convener Con
There is clearly some interference in the room, which we are trying to sort out. Are members content that we continue, or is it too distracting? I see that w...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Good morning. Forgive me, because I have already spoken and have not said that yet. My amendment 109 says that work-based learning or foundation apprentices...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I have heard before the misconception about apprenticeships not being a priority for the SFC, should the Parliament pass the bill and it be implemented. I wa...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
The amendment is not about saying that the SFC would not prioritise apprenticeships. It is about recognising that the SFC is quite busy with other fires that...
Ben Macpherson SNP
Will the member give way?
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I will finish my point, then I will be happy to do so. In the minister’s letter to the committee, he sets out the future responsibilities of the redesigned f...