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Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 03 December 2025 [Draft]

03 Dec 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Macpherson, Ben SNP Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

I refer back to what I said about the letter of guidance and the stage 2 discussions that we have had on how the apprenticeship committee will direct the SFC’s considerations with regard to the deployment and implementation of funding for apprenticeships. I will say a bit more about those points later, so I ask Stephen Kerr to bear with me.

Amendment 103, in the name of Miles Briggs, would require 75 per cent of any grants made by the SFC for Scottish apprenticeships and work-based learning to be given to colleges of further education. That would represent a significant change of emphasis from the current model, in which the majority of training is provided through independent training providers.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the distribution of funding between the public and private sectors, it would not be appropriate to set a limit in legislation. I go back to my previous point about flexibility. As it stands, amendment 103 would make a smooth transition to the SFC on 1 April 2027 difficult.

Let me turn to other topics covered in this group of amendments. Amendment 94, in the name of Stephen Kerr, seeks to ensure that every young person between the ages of 16 and 24 who is not in full-time education or employment

“is offered access to a publicly-funded Scottish apprenticeship or work-based learning opportunity.”

Although I understand that, in lodging the amendment, Stephen Kerr seeks to be useful, it would be very difficult for any Government to guarantee what he is asking for, not least because it would depend on there being employers and sufficient jobs, apprenticeships and work-based learning opportunities available. I noted the exchange between John Mason and Stephen Kerr in that regard. I appreciate that there is significant demand at the moment, but we must legislate in a way that caters for the circumstances of the future as well as for the short term.

I am supportive of the principles behind amendment 96, in the name of Stephen Kerr. Providing pathways for unemployed persons, people seeking to change careers and people at risk of being excluded from the labour market is entirely sensible; however, making selective provision would cut across the overarching duty on the SFC to secure coherent provision. A similar argument applies to amendment 97.

Amendment 98, in the name of Stephen Kerr, seeks to ensure that steps are taken to expand the range of graduate apprenticeships and frameworks. That might be the right approach in practice, but we would not want to constrain ourselves in primary legislation. In the future, it might be more efficient to have, say, fewer broader frameworks rather than a proliferation of frameworks. Hypothetically, a broad framework that covered the health professions might be preferred over a number of frameworks covering individual professions. We must create capacity for flexibility.

Again, I share the ambition behind amendment 99, in the name of Stephen Kerr, for year-on-year growth in the number of apprenticeships. However, it is important to note that there are certain constraints on the number of apprenticeships that the Government and the Parliament simply cannot control, including whether employers are willing to take them on. In a recession, businesses might be reluctant to hire, so it might be harder to secure the number of apprenticeship starts.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Our next item is continued consideration at stage 2 of the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome back Ben Macph...
The Convener Con
Amendment 94, in the name of Stephen Kerr, is grouped with amendments 9, 10, 95, 30, 96 to 102, 31, 11, 32, 103 to 109, 33, 110 to 112, 12, 113 to 120, 34 an...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Good morning. I will speak to amendments 94, 96 to 100 and 119, which are in my name and which all relate to the funding of Scottish apprenticeships and work...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Amendment 94 refers to “a publicly-funded Scottish apprenticeship”. Does that mean in the public sector? Would it mean that local authorities would have to...
Stephen Kerr Con
No. I am referring to the mechanism by which places are funded rather than where the places are located, whether in the public or private sector.
John Mason Ind
We could not insist on the private sector creating apprenticeships if it did not want or need them. Would it therefore fall to the public sector to provide t...
Stephen Kerr Con
I think that John Mason will find that there is great demand for apprenticeships. Currently, that demand is unmet. If you listen to employers, as I am sure J...
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
My understanding is that the term “work-based learning” is intended to cover all types of activities currently undertaken as foundation apprenticeships. Howe...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson) SNP
I will come to that in my remarks, if that is okay.
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
Good morning. My amendment 95 would add a new definition of work-based learning—it would make it clear that foundation apprenticeships are included in the st...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
On amendment 103, will the member explain the 75 per cent figure and what the current split is, so that we can get an understanding of that?
Miles Briggs Con
I worked with Colleges Scotland on the amendment, and 75 per cent is the capacity that it would expect to be able to deliver, leaving 25 per cent for other p...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
For my four amendments in this group, I have been working with SELECT—Scotland’s electrical trade association. Amendment 30 specifies that Scottish ministers...
Ben Macpherson SNP
The dialogue that we have had so far this morning speaks again to the strong alignment across the Parliament and the committee to improve the system, which i...
Willie Rennie LD
If the minister has finished with Jackie Dunbar’s amendments, I want to make a point about my amendments 31 to 33. They are not about limiting fees, but abou...
Ben Macpherson SNP
In the bill, a managing agent is a training provider, and I value the important role that training providers and managing agents play in the current system. ...
Stephen Kerr Con
Minister, do you accept that this approach will create uncertainty in the funding of apprenticeships? In effect, you are saying that all of this will be done...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I refer back to what I said about the letter of guidance and the stage 2 discussions that we have had on how the apprenticeship committee will direct the SFC...
Stephen Kerr Con
Does the minister accept that there is quite a lot of unmet demand, especially in the SME sector? Does he also understand that hundreds of millions of pounds...
Ben Macpherson SNP
We will discuss the apprenticeship levy in later groups of amendments, but the fact is that the situation is not as Stephen Kerr sets out. It is more complic...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I have been pulling up the exact detail of amendment 113. Although I appreciate the conversation that we had last week on fair work practices, does the minis...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for that intervention. She and other members will recall that amendment 73 in group 5 covered similar ground, and the issue was sub...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Will the minister take another intervention?
Ben Macpherson SNP
I would like to make progress, if that is okay. The reform to the skills landscape that we are taking forward does not anticipate skills planning to be some...
The Convener Con
There is clearly some interference in the room, which we are trying to sort out. Are members content that we continue, or is it too distracting? I see that w...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Good morning. Forgive me, because I have already spoken and have not said that yet. My amendment 109 says that work-based learning or foundation apprentices...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I have heard before the misconception about apprenticeships not being a priority for the SFC, should the Parliament pass the bill and it be implemented. I wa...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
The amendment is not about saying that the SFC would not prioritise apprenticeships. It is about recognising that the SFC is quite busy with other fires that...
Ben Macpherson SNP
Will the member give way?
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I will finish my point, then I will be happy to do so. In the minister’s letter to the committee, he sets out the future responsibilities of the redesigned f...