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Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 03 December 2025 [Draft]

03 Dec 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Macpherson, Ben SNP Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

In the bill, a managing agent is a training provider, and I value the important role that training providers and managing agents play in the current system. I would also be interested in having further engagement, and I do appreciate the constructive engagement that we had from Mr Rennie ahead of the amendments being lodged. As part of our dialogue ahead of stage 3, I would like to listen to more about those points, and I would be grateful if we could use that time to have more discussion.

Several other amendments in the group relate to foundation apprenticeships and work-based learning. Amendment 95, in the name of Miles Briggs, would bring a reference to “foundation apprenticeships” into the definition of “work-based learning”. The definition has already been designed to cover foundation apprenticeships, and will do so in a better way through amendments 9 and 10. Adding the definition proposed in Miles Briggs’s amendment and introducing provision for foundation apprenticeships when we already have provision for work-based learning could be confusing and could risk creating unintended consequences. We have also had a discussion about how we do not want to have the term “foundation apprenticeships” in the bill. Therefore, I encourage Mr Briggs not to move amendment 95.

There are several amendments that seek to replicate existing legislative requirements on the SFC to have regard to various matters in section 20 of the 2005 act or to collaborate with various bodies listed in section 22 of that act. They include amendment 100, in the name of Stephen Kerr; amendment 102, in the name of Miles Briggs; amendment 106, in the name of Miles Briggs—an amendment that would duplicate the provision in amendment 47, in the name of Ross Greer, which I intend to support when we get to that group; amendment 107, in the name of Miles Briggs; and amendment 109, in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy. I do not consider it necessary to duplicate the current requirements. However, if members do not move their respective amendments, I will undertake to review what is covered by section 20 of the 2005 act and consider their respective issues ahead of stage 3.

Other amendments seek to make legislative provision in areas that would be better handled administratively. I agree with the spirit of those amendments, but putting such matters in legislation would limit the ability of future Governments to change tack and adapt to different circumstances, or for the SFC to have a flexible and agile operation. Those amendments include amendment 101, in the name of Miles Briggs, which would require the SFC to take account of “good practice”. It is unclear what such “good practice” would be or where it would derive from, and, in any case, we already expect the SFC to do that in how it operates in practice.

Amendments 104 and 105, in the name of Miles Briggs, concern SME grants, which are matters for the terms and conditions of grant funding and/or guidance from Scottish ministers. Amendment 115, also in the name of Miles Briggs, relates to cost benefit analyses and equality impact assessments, which are already a requirement for new policies and, therefore, are already catered for.

I am sympathetic to Miles Briggs’s amendment 116, but it is not needed. Transparency, accountability and cost effectiveness will be central principles in the delivery of work-based learning. Where it is necessary to say anything additional about those principles, that can be done through guidance or in Scottish ministers’ terms and conditions of grant to the SFC.

Again, the issue covered in amendment 120, in the name of Daniel Johnson, is best dealt with as an administrative matter. It is not appropriate for the bill to spell out in detail all the matters that should be covered in the SFC’s annual report. The amendment covers one important matter, but there are many others of equal importance.

09:30  

A number of amendments attempt to protect expenditure on apprenticeships and work-based learning. The proper place for determining budgets is the Scottish Government’s budget bill, following the budget process. Amendment 34, in the name of Willie Rennie, would, in effect, duplicate the Scottish Government’s budget bill process and the process by which money is moved from one budget line to another through the autumn and spring budget revisions. The bill includes specific powers for ministers to provide grants to the SFC to support apprenticeships and work-based learning, and its provisions also expressly require that such grants issued by Scottish ministers be administered by the SFC only for those specified purposes. Scottish ministers set out their high-level priorities for the SFC through the annual letter of guidance. Together, those provisions make clear the purposes for which the SFC must use the funding provided to it.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Our next item is continued consideration at stage 2 of the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome back Ben Macph...
The Convener Con
Amendment 94, in the name of Stephen Kerr, is grouped with amendments 9, 10, 95, 30, 96 to 102, 31, 11, 32, 103 to 109, 33, 110 to 112, 12, 113 to 120, 34 an...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Good morning. I will speak to amendments 94, 96 to 100 and 119, which are in my name and which all relate to the funding of Scottish apprenticeships and work...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Amendment 94 refers to “a publicly-funded Scottish apprenticeship”. Does that mean in the public sector? Would it mean that local authorities would have to...
Stephen Kerr Con
No. I am referring to the mechanism by which places are funded rather than where the places are located, whether in the public or private sector.
John Mason Ind
We could not insist on the private sector creating apprenticeships if it did not want or need them. Would it therefore fall to the public sector to provide t...
Stephen Kerr Con
I think that John Mason will find that there is great demand for apprenticeships. Currently, that demand is unmet. If you listen to employers, as I am sure J...
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
My understanding is that the term “work-based learning” is intended to cover all types of activities currently undertaken as foundation apprenticeships. Howe...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson) SNP
I will come to that in my remarks, if that is okay.
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
Good morning. My amendment 95 would add a new definition of work-based learning—it would make it clear that foundation apprenticeships are included in the st...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
On amendment 103, will the member explain the 75 per cent figure and what the current split is, so that we can get an understanding of that?
Miles Briggs Con
I worked with Colleges Scotland on the amendment, and 75 per cent is the capacity that it would expect to be able to deliver, leaving 25 per cent for other p...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
For my four amendments in this group, I have been working with SELECT—Scotland’s electrical trade association. Amendment 30 specifies that Scottish ministers...
Ben Macpherson SNP
The dialogue that we have had so far this morning speaks again to the strong alignment across the Parliament and the committee to improve the system, which i...
Willie Rennie LD
If the minister has finished with Jackie Dunbar’s amendments, I want to make a point about my amendments 31 to 33. They are not about limiting fees, but abou...
Ben Macpherson SNP
In the bill, a managing agent is a training provider, and I value the important role that training providers and managing agents play in the current system. ...
Stephen Kerr Con
Minister, do you accept that this approach will create uncertainty in the funding of apprenticeships? In effect, you are saying that all of this will be done...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I refer back to what I said about the letter of guidance and the stage 2 discussions that we have had on how the apprenticeship committee will direct the SFC...
Stephen Kerr Con
Does the minister accept that there is quite a lot of unmet demand, especially in the SME sector? Does he also understand that hundreds of millions of pounds...
Ben Macpherson SNP
We will discuss the apprenticeship levy in later groups of amendments, but the fact is that the situation is not as Stephen Kerr sets out. It is more complic...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I have been pulling up the exact detail of amendment 113. Although I appreciate the conversation that we had last week on fair work practices, does the minis...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for that intervention. She and other members will recall that amendment 73 in group 5 covered similar ground, and the issue was sub...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Will the minister take another intervention?
Ben Macpherson SNP
I would like to make progress, if that is okay. The reform to the skills landscape that we are taking forward does not anticipate skills planning to be some...
The Convener Con
There is clearly some interference in the room, which we are trying to sort out. Are members content that we continue, or is it too distracting? I see that w...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Good morning. Forgive me, because I have already spoken and have not said that yet. My amendment 109 says that work-based learning or foundation apprentices...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I have heard before the misconception about apprenticeships not being a priority for the SFC, should the Parliament pass the bill and it be implemented. I wa...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
The amendment is not about saying that the SFC would not prioritise apprenticeships. It is about recognising that the SFC is quite busy with other fires that...
Ben Macpherson SNP
Will the member give way?
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I will finish my point, then I will be happy to do so. In the minister’s letter to the committee, he sets out the future responsibilities of the redesigned f...