Committee
Education, Children and Young People Committee 03 December 2025 [Draft]
03 Dec 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
My understanding is that the term “work-based learning” is intended to cover all types of activities currently undertaken as foundation apprenticeships. However, the definition of work-based learning in the bill would not cover all foundation apprenticeships. Only Scottish credit and qualifications framework level 6 includes learning in a working environment, which is a key aspect of the definition in the bill, whereas levels 4 and 5 are limited to experiences such as challenge projects, based on a scenario from the employer but conducted in a school or college.
The SFC already has powers to fund learning in a college environment, but it has no powers to fund education or training in schools, and it is intended that all current foundation apprenticeships, including school based, will be secured by the SFC. To ensure a smooth transition on day 1, my amendments 9 and 10 would ensure that the SFC can fund work-based learning in schools in the same way as SDS does now. For that reason, I hope that members will support them. I have spoken to the Food and Drink Federation Scotland, which supports my two amendments. I believe that Universities Scotland has written to you, minister, asking for clarity on whether you envisage that my amendments would include graduate apprenticeships or whether that would have to be addressed at stage 3.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Our next item is continued consideration at stage 2 of the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome back Ben Macph...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 94, in the name of Stephen Kerr, is grouped with amendments 9, 10, 95, 30, 96 to 102, 31, 11, 32, 103 to 109, 33, 110 to 112, 12, 113 to 120, 34 an...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning. I will speak to amendments 94, 96 to 100 and 119, which are in my name and which all relate to the funding of Scottish apprenticeships and work...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind)
Ind
Amendment 94 refers to “a publicly-funded Scottish apprenticeship”. Does that mean in the public sector? Would it mean that local authorities would have to...
Stephen Kerr
Con
No. I am referring to the mechanism by which places are funded rather than where the places are located, whether in the public or private sector.
John Mason
Ind
We could not insist on the private sector creating apprenticeships if it did not want or need them. Would it therefore fall to the public sector to provide t...
Stephen Kerr
Con
I think that John Mason will find that there is great demand for apprenticeships. Currently, that demand is unmet. If you listen to employers, as I am sure J...
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
SNP
My understanding is that the term “work-based learning” is intended to cover all types of activities currently undertaken as foundation apprenticeships. Howe...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson)
SNP
I will come to that in my remarks, if that is okay.
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Good morning. My amendment 95 would add a new definition of work-based learning—it would make it clear that foundation apprenticeships are included in the st...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
On amendment 103, will the member explain the 75 per cent figure and what the current split is, so that we can get an understanding of that?
Miles Briggs
Con
I worked with Colleges Scotland on the amendment, and 75 per cent is the capacity that it would expect to be able to deliver, leaving 25 per cent for other p...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD)
LD
For my four amendments in this group, I have been working with SELECT—Scotland’s electrical trade association. Amendment 30 specifies that Scottish ministers...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
The dialogue that we have had so far this morning speaks again to the strong alignment across the Parliament and the committee to improve the system, which i...
Willie Rennie
LD
If the minister has finished with Jackie Dunbar’s amendments, I want to make a point about my amendments 31 to 33. They are not about limiting fees, but abou...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
In the bill, a managing agent is a training provider, and I value the important role that training providers and managing agents play in the current system. ...
Stephen Kerr
Con
Minister, do you accept that this approach will create uncertainty in the funding of apprenticeships? In effect, you are saying that all of this will be done...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
I refer back to what I said about the letter of guidance and the stage 2 discussions that we have had on how the apprenticeship committee will direct the SFC...
Stephen Kerr
Con
Does the minister accept that there is quite a lot of unmet demand, especially in the SME sector? Does he also understand that hundreds of millions of pounds...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
We will discuss the apprenticeship levy in later groups of amendments, but the fact is that the situation is not as Stephen Kerr sets out. It is more complic...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
I have been pulling up the exact detail of amendment 113. Although I appreciate the conversation that we had last week on fair work practices, does the minis...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for that intervention. She and other members will recall that amendment 73 in group 5 covered similar ground, and the issue was sub...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
Will the minister take another intervention?
Ben Macpherson
SNP
I would like to make progress, if that is okay. The reform to the skills landscape that we are taking forward does not anticipate skills planning to be some...
The Convener
Con
There is clearly some interference in the room, which we are trying to sort out. Are members content that we continue, or is it too distracting? I see that w...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
Good morning. Forgive me, because I have already spoken and have not said that yet. My amendment 109 says that work-based learning or foundation apprentices...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
I have heard before the misconception about apprenticeships not being a priority for the SFC, should the Parliament pass the bill and it be implemented. I wa...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
The amendment is not about saying that the SFC would not prioritise apprenticeships. It is about recognising that the SFC is quite busy with other fires that...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
Will the member give way?
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
I will finish my point, then I will be happy to do so. In the minister’s letter to the committee, he sets out the future responsibilities of the redesigned f...