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Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 03 December 2025 [Draft]

03 Dec 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Kerr, Stephen Con Central Scotland Watch on SPTV

I think that John Mason will find that there is great demand for apprenticeships. Currently, that demand is unmet. If you listen to employers, as I am sure John Mason has done, you will find that they are crying out for those. That is particularly the case in the small and medium-sized enterprise sector, which we all know is a huge element of the Scottish economy. More people work in SMEs than in large-scale businesses, and SMEs are desperately keen to bring on apprenticeships, particularly for young people.

I do not think that the question is whether the demand exists; it is whether we have the will and accept our moral responsibility to make that provision when public funding is required, and that is what my amendment would do.

Amendments 96, 97 and 98 would build on that commitment of equality of opportunity. Amendment 96 would provide that the council must ensure that apprenticeships

“include pathways targeted at—

(a) unemployed persons,

(b) persons seeking to change careers, and

(c) persons at risk of labour market exclusion.”

Amendment 97 would oblige the Funding Council to

“promote and support school-to-work pathways, including school college partnerships, foundation apprenticeships and work-based learning for senior phase pupils.”

Amendment 98 would require the council to

“take steps to expand the range and number of graduate apprenticeship frameworks”

and,

“in doing so, prioritise sectors experiencing skills shortages”.

The amendments are targeted specifically at those who are either left out or are at risk of being left out of the labour market. They are targeted to reduce economic inactivity and, crucially, to ensure equality of opportunity across the board. As members will have detected from my remarks, I have a commitment—as I am sure they do—to the concept of creating more equal opportunity in our country and our economy.

Amendments 99 and 100 would strengthen the link between funding and quality. They would require ministers and the council to ensure that funding does not simply support provision but supports provision that is fit for purpose and capable of delivering meaningful outcomes.

We recognise that apprenticeships are not simply another educational pathway; they are a contract of sorts between the state, the learner and the employer. When that contract is honoured, productivity rises, job prospects improve and the system commands public confidence. When funding is detached from quality, the entire system risks mediocrity. The amendments would provide a safeguard against that outcome.

Amendment 119 addresses the long-standing problem of volatility in apprenticeship funding. The availability of places in Scotland too often fluctuates unpredictably from year to year. We have seen that happen particularly in the past two or three years. That creates uncertainty for employers and learners alike, along with everyone else in that ecosystem.

Apprenticeships require continuity. Businesses must know when they are planning that, if they invest in new talent, the system will support them. Amendment 119 would require ministers to consider stability and continuity in funding, so that the apprenticeship system can grow rather than lurch from one year to the next.

I am bound to point out that, in respect of the current amount of money that is raised and allocated to Scotland through the apprenticeship levy every year, we are spending nothing like the amount of money that is designated for apprenticeships on apprenticeships, to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds.

Taken together, the amendments present a coherent view of what a modern, effective funding system must look like. It must be transparent, predictable and aligned with economic need. As I said in response to John Mason earlier, there is undoubtedly genuine demand for apprenticeships. Together, these amendments are all about high-quality provision that equips Scotland’s workforce for the future. Those are principles that my party, the Scottish Conservatives, have championed consistently throughout the scrutiny of the bill, and they are principles that would make the legislation better. I know the minister well enough to know that his motivation would be to make it work better.

Apprenticeships and work-based learning are not peripheral concerns; they are central to Scotland’s productivity, competitiveness and opportunity. If the funding system is weak, the entire structure weakens with it. That is why the amendments in my name in the group seek to strengthen the bill, which I believe urgently needs reinforcement if it is to mean anything.

I invite colleagues to support amendments 94, 96 to 100 and 119.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Our next item is continued consideration at stage 2 of the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome back Ben Macph...
The Convener Con
Amendment 94, in the name of Stephen Kerr, is grouped with amendments 9, 10, 95, 30, 96 to 102, 31, 11, 32, 103 to 109, 33, 110 to 112, 12, 113 to 120, 34 an...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Good morning. I will speak to amendments 94, 96 to 100 and 119, which are in my name and which all relate to the funding of Scottish apprenticeships and work...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Amendment 94 refers to “a publicly-funded Scottish apprenticeship”. Does that mean in the public sector? Would it mean that local authorities would have to...
Stephen Kerr Con
No. I am referring to the mechanism by which places are funded rather than where the places are located, whether in the public or private sector.
John Mason Ind
We could not insist on the private sector creating apprenticeships if it did not want or need them. Would it therefore fall to the public sector to provide t...
Stephen Kerr Con
I think that John Mason will find that there is great demand for apprenticeships. Currently, that demand is unmet. If you listen to employers, as I am sure J...
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
My understanding is that the term “work-based learning” is intended to cover all types of activities currently undertaken as foundation apprenticeships. Howe...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson) SNP
I will come to that in my remarks, if that is okay.
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
Good morning. My amendment 95 would add a new definition of work-based learning—it would make it clear that foundation apprenticeships are included in the st...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
On amendment 103, will the member explain the 75 per cent figure and what the current split is, so that we can get an understanding of that?
Miles Briggs Con
I worked with Colleges Scotland on the amendment, and 75 per cent is the capacity that it would expect to be able to deliver, leaving 25 per cent for other p...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
For my four amendments in this group, I have been working with SELECT—Scotland’s electrical trade association. Amendment 30 specifies that Scottish ministers...
Ben Macpherson SNP
The dialogue that we have had so far this morning speaks again to the strong alignment across the Parliament and the committee to improve the system, which i...
Willie Rennie LD
If the minister has finished with Jackie Dunbar’s amendments, I want to make a point about my amendments 31 to 33. They are not about limiting fees, but abou...
Ben Macpherson SNP
In the bill, a managing agent is a training provider, and I value the important role that training providers and managing agents play in the current system. ...
Stephen Kerr Con
Minister, do you accept that this approach will create uncertainty in the funding of apprenticeships? In effect, you are saying that all of this will be done...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I refer back to what I said about the letter of guidance and the stage 2 discussions that we have had on how the apprenticeship committee will direct the SFC...
Stephen Kerr Con
Does the minister accept that there is quite a lot of unmet demand, especially in the SME sector? Does he also understand that hundreds of millions of pounds...
Ben Macpherson SNP
We will discuss the apprenticeship levy in later groups of amendments, but the fact is that the situation is not as Stephen Kerr sets out. It is more complic...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I have been pulling up the exact detail of amendment 113. Although I appreciate the conversation that we had last week on fair work practices, does the minis...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for that intervention. She and other members will recall that amendment 73 in group 5 covered similar ground, and the issue was sub...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Will the minister take another intervention?
Ben Macpherson SNP
I would like to make progress, if that is okay. The reform to the skills landscape that we are taking forward does not anticipate skills planning to be some...
The Convener Con
There is clearly some interference in the room, which we are trying to sort out. Are members content that we continue, or is it too distracting? I see that w...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Good morning. Forgive me, because I have already spoken and have not said that yet. My amendment 109 says that work-based learning or foundation apprentices...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I have heard before the misconception about apprenticeships not being a priority for the SFC, should the Parliament pass the bill and it be implemented. I wa...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
The amendment is not about saying that the SFC would not prioritise apprenticeships. It is about recognising that the SFC is quite busy with other fires that...
Ben Macpherson SNP
Will the member give way?
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I will finish my point, then I will be happy to do so. In the minister’s letter to the committee, he sets out the future responsibilities of the redesigned f...