Hansard

The Convener (Audrey Nicoll) SNP

Good morning, and welcome to the 32nd meeting in 2025 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. We expect to be joined later by Racha...

Ash Regan (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Ind

Thank you, convener. I want to put on record my thanks to the committee for the scrutiny that it has undertaken on the bill. I have listened very carefully t...

The Convener SNP

Thank you, Ms Regan. We will move straight to questions and I will begin with a couple of broad ones. The first relates to last week’s meeting, when we had ...

Ash Regan Ind

There is rather a lot in that question. I counted about four different things and will take them in turn, starting with the final point. I have not spoken t...

The Convener SNP

I am sure that what you have been outlining will come up in further questioning, so I will move to my second question, which relates specifically to section ...

Ash Regan Ind

I took note of the fact that Police Scotland raised that in its evidence a few weeks ago. Under the bill, the offence is complete at the point of agreement t...

The Convener SNP

Thank you for that. I have a final question on the point that you made regarding the crime being complete at the point of payment, or evidence of payment o...

Ash Regan Ind

The Crown Office’s position on that, which it put forward when it was in front of the committee, provided an interesting perspective. Emma Forbes said that t...

Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con

Good morning. According to the policy memorandum, the aim of the bill is to reduce the number of people in prostitution and reduce the impact on those who ar...

Ash Regan Ind

Mr Kerr’s question cuts to the heart of the issue on which the committee is deliberating. I want to be clear on this point: the committee has not been presen...

Liam Kerr Con

The next question is similar. The committee has heard differing evidence as to whether criminalising purchasers might result in a higher risk for those who a...

Ash Regan Ind

It will not make women more unsafe. No evidence has been presented that suggests that the Nordic model makes women more unsafe. That was one of the key notes...

Liam Kerr Con

I have a small follow-up question, because you brought in enforcement at the end. The convener asked an important question, and you brought up Northern Irela...

Ash Regan Ind

The bill has been drafted differently—in fact, we spent quite a bit of time, in drafting it, looking at the drafting of various other pieces of legislation. ...

The Convener SNP

I will have to cut you off, I am afraid, because a number of members want to come in. We have had only two members ask questions so far, and we have a lot to...

Liam Kerr Con

I am done—thank you, convener.

Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab

As you say, Ash, there seems to be support for three pillars of your bill from what I will refer to as both sides of the argument. However, there seem to be ...

Ash Regan Ind

First, the reason why there is resistance to the idea of criminalising the buyer is that, as I have just explained, Scotland is a very profitable destination...

Katy Clark Lab

If we take women working on the street, who I think you would agree are a more vulnerable group, some of the evidence seems to suggest, or some people are ar...

Ash Regan Ind

You are being told that because the pimp lobby does not want to criminalise demand. Pimps and traffickers are making a lot of money in Scotland, and they wan...

Katy Clark Lab

We have been told that, in France, the number of sex workers murdered seems to have been atypically high in the space of time immediately after the introduct...

Ash Regan Ind

I am sure that the convener will not want me to go into extreme detail on this. I will follow up with the committee on the evidence that we have on it—but, n...

Katy Clark Lab

That would be helpful, or perhaps you could share it with the committee later.

The Convener SNP

Can I perhaps now bring in other members and, if there is time, come back to you?

Katy Clark Lab

Yes, of course.

The Convener SNP

I urge witnesses to give succinct responses, just to allow everybody to come in. I bring in Jamie Hepburn.

Jamie Hepburn (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) SNP

Thank you, convener. I will stick with the theme, because our primary concern is the safety of women and girls who are involved in the selling of sex. Ash R...

Ash Regan Ind

It is wrong, and it is not just me who says that. The committee had a criminologist—a professor with 30 years’ experience—in here who told you that that is w...

Jamie Hepburn SNP

We have also heard from other academics, and we had the experience of engaging with women who are involved in the selling of sex—a summary of that engagement...

Ash Regan Ind

Which study was that?