Education, Children and Young People Committee 19 November 2025
Convener, I begin by thanking you, the committee and all those who lodged amendments to the bill, and the minister and her officials and my officials for the extraordinary amount of work that has gone into it. It is a relatively small bill in the grand scheme of things at Holyrood, but I appreciate the work that has gone into it, particularly the scrutiny. It has been immensely helpful to me as I engage with members.
I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for lodging the amendments, for the same reasons that the minister gave. They cover important issues, and it is good to hear that the minister has made a commitment regarding stage 3. I also thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for her opening remarks. She has been diligent in her assistance with some of the troubling issues that we have had to negotiate.
Amendments 1, 2, 6 and 7 are all linked, but I will focus on amendment 6, which is the main amendment, as Pam Duncan-Glancy set out. There is no question that the impact of the bill on staffing has been a major issue that has come up throughout the passage of the bill. Having met the unions and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, alongside the minister, I am very aware of their on-going concerns about some aspects of that. That said, I am also aware of the evidence that points to the fact that the majority of teachers want to be involved, if at all possible, in residential outdoor education. Some of the surveys show upwards of 90 per cent in support, which is a pretty convincing figure, but as the minister has rightly said, there are issues about contracts.
One thing that has been brought home to us throughout the three years that we have been discussing the bill is that there has been a lack of data. Some local authorities have very good data, but others do not. There has been a big question mark—and Pam Duncan-Glancy is right to raise it—about the quality of the data that we have, but also about the quantity of data that we need to address some of the questions that are still out there.
If, in addition to the requirement to provide residential outdoor education, further obligations are placed on staff as they participate in it, we have to be careful that they do not become too many or too onerous. I agree with Pam Duncan-Glancy about the need to oversee the data from time to time, but we have to be careful that what staff have to do in terms of collecting and submitting that data does not become too onerous. That is a bit of a concern that I have.
In summary, I fully accept the principles behind amendments 1, 2, 6 and 7 and I encourage the minister and Pam Duncan-Glancy to discuss matters further. It would be helpful if that discussion could take place ahead of stage 3, so that we can come to a common agreement.
Turning to amendments 28, 29 and 30, I agree with Pam Duncan-Glancy about the need to ensure that we do not force people into residential outdoor education. That is not the intention of the bill and it never has been. It would be totally wrong for anybody to suggest that all teachers should participate. I listened carefully to what trade unions were saying about the fact that, because of the pressures on the teaching workforce, perhaps more teachers are not participating. Some of the evidence contradicts that slightly, but it is a concern. We need to be mindful of that.