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Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 19 November 2025

19 Nov 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Don-Innes, Natalie SNP Renfrewshire North and West Watch on SPTV

That is the impression that I got from unions—that teachers really buy into these experiences—and putting that provision in the bill could jeopardise that.

There are also technical issues in relation to amendment 28. I mentioned that the SNCT is a non-statutory arrangement, so we should not try to make law that relies on definitions and processes that, rightly, continue to evolve through engagement and agreement. I am very conscious that there has been no formal consultation with the SNCT on the desirability or otherwise of that amendment. However, there will, of course, be an opportunity for the SNCT to consider the intent behind the amendment and to agree to make an appropriate change to the SNCT handbook, which is why the engagement is very important. I want to reassure Ms Duncan-Glancy that, should the bill be passed at stage 3, it is the Scottish Government’s intention to engage positively with the SNCT on any implications for teachers’ terms and conditions. Therefore, I hope that she will not press amendment 28. If she does, I could not support it, and I would urge members to vote against it.

On amendment 29, I have met with Scotland’s teaching unions on multiple occasions to discuss the bill, and I fully value their input and feedback on understanding the practicalities of how the bill might affect teachers. I am clear that, should the bill become law, the Government would absolutely look to continue to engage with the teaching unions to help to inform implementation. Given how critical the teaching workforce is to implementing the bill’s measures, it is only right and appropriate to acknowledge that in the bill itself, to make it clear that they will be consulted. I encourage the committee to support amendment 29.

I support amendment 30, which directly follows on from amendment 29 by defining what is meant by the term “recognised trade unions”. The definition is in line with existing legislation. However, I also acknowledge that not every teacher will necessarily be a member of a trade union, and that, in line with our fair work principles, we should ensure that their voices can also be heard, so I will further consider whether an amendment at stage 3 might be appropriate to make that clear.

On amendment 6, I want to be clear that, as with any new piece of legislation, it will be important to establish robust monitoring and evaluation mechanisms, should the bill become law. Therefore, I acknowledge that the intention of amendment 6 is valid and valuable. It is important that there are procedures in place to monitor the impact of legislation in order that local government, the Scottish Government and providers can adjust and evolve their approaches as necessary. However, under provisions of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980, ministers have the power to require education authorities to provide information, and grant conditions enable that for grant-aided schools, too. These provisions are sufficient to establish appropriate monitoring and reporting, so I do not consider that such a detailed approach to monitoring and evaluation in the bill itself is necessary.

However, I have asked officials to consider for stage 3 how we might incorporate a general duty on reporting, so I hope that that reassures Pam Duncan-Glancy that we have a shared acceptance of, and commitment to, the importance of the matter and that she will not press amendment 6. If she does, I encourage members to vote against it.

Amendment 7 is a consequential amendment that makes provision for the parliamentary procedure that would apply to regulations that ministers would be empowered to make if amendment 6 were passed. Amendments 1 and 2 are technical amendments to enable amendment 7 to be made. I cannot support amendment 6, and so it follows that I do not support consequential amendments 7, 1 and 2.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Our next item is consideration of the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome Liz Smith MSP, the member in charge of th...
The Convener Con
Now that we have covered the process, we can move to the substantive business. Amendment 1, in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy, is grouped with amendments 2, 2...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Good morning to the committee and to Liz Smith. I set out at the start my thanks to the member in charge for the way in which she has engaged on the bill and...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
It seems to me be a bit of a challenge to tie these two things together: if a school is required to send all its children away on a trip and, in an extreme c...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I do not think that my amendment 28 would destroy the purpose of the bill; it is certainly not my intention for that to be the case. The principle of volunta...
The Convener Con
I call John Mason.
John Mason Ind
I did not realise that we were proceeding quite so quickly, convener. Following my intervention on Pam Duncan-Glancy, I continue to struggle to see how the...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I ask John Mason to forgive me for not looking in his direction, as I want to read the exact wording in the amendment. I should say, first of all, that the...
John Mason Ind
I am interested to hear what the member in charge of the bill has to say on that area, especially in relation to her amendments 13 and 14, which are in the n...
The Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise (Natalie Don-Innes) SNP
I welcome the amendments in this group and thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for lodging them and explaining their intent. The amendments, which concern the impacts of...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I understand the points that the minister is making. However, in actual fact, the intention of the amendment is to not cut across that arrangement. That is w...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
At the moment, I do not believe so. Further engagement with the unions to understand some of the complexities that we have been over in the committee previou...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
Will the minister give way? 09:45
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I want to finish responding to Ms Duncan-Glancy first. The view that I have received from the teaching unions is that legislating in the way that the bill do...
Miles Briggs Con
I agree with what the minister says. When we look at where we are delivering in Scotland—in my local authority here in Edinburgh but also in Aberdeenshire an...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
That is the impression that I got from unions—that teachers really buy into these experiences—and putting that provision in the bill could jeopardise that. ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Convener, I begin by thanking you, the committee and all those who lodged amendments to the bill, and the minister and her officials and my officials for the...
John Mason Ind
The member expresses some doubt in her remarks, but does she think that there are enough teachers willing to volunteer to get all the kids who should be goin...
Liz Smith Con
Yes, I do, and I think that the evidence shows that. Mr Briggs referred earlier to his local authority, where it is quite clear that substantial numbers of t...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
On the principle of voluntarism, it is clear from the conversation that we have had that the evidence suggests that there will be teachers and staff in schoo...
The Convener Con
Amendment 13, in the name of Liz Smith, is grouped with amendment 14.
Liz Smith Con
Amendments 13 and 14 qualify the duties on education authorities and managers of grant-aided schools to provide or secure the provision of one course of resi...
John Mason Ind
I do not wish to labour the point, but would not having enough volunteer teachers in a school for a trip be one of those reasonable reasons?
Liz Smith Con
I do not think so, given the context of how other legislation is written. The same phrase comes up in other legislation, which is one of the reasons for lodg...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I start by saying that this is the first opportunity that I have had since stage 1 to acknowledge and welcome the extremely constructive approach of the memb...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Ind) Ind
For absolute clarity on this issue, will you confirm that a local authority being under financial pressure would not be a reason to stop a school or a group ...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I do not believe that it would be. I am glad that Mr Balfour has brought up that point, because it relates to Mr Mason’s point, too. I hope that, through the...
The Convener Con
I call Liz Smith to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 13.
Liz Smith Con
I have nothing further to say, other than that I very much welcome those assurances and will press amendment 13. Amendment 13 agreed to. Amendment 14 mov...
The Convener Con
Amendment 15, in the name of Liz Smith, is grouped with amendments 3, 11, 4, 17, 5, 12 and 22 to 25. I point out that, if amendment 17 is agreed to, I cannot...