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Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 19 November 2025

19 Nov 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

I do not think that my amendment 28 would destroy the purpose of the bill; it is certainly not my intention for that to be the case. The principle of voluntarism is inherent in the bill, which is about the ability to access outdoor education. Evidence that the committee took suggests that despite concerns about growing workloads in the classroom and despite how difficult it can be to be a teacher or a member of staff in a school right now, teachers and staff have still been really positive about the experience that outdoor education could create for young people. I was encouraged to hear that they were still prepared to engage in it on that basis.

My amendment 28 is not intended to do what Mr Mason suggests it might; what it does do, and what other amendments in my name in this group seek to do, is monitor the situation. In recent weeks we have seen some concerns about teacher workload, so it is important that we at least consider what the impact of the bill could be. Teachers, staff in schools, parents, pupils and members across the Parliament have been clear that giving young people a right to access outdoor education is crucial, and there is a willingness to make it work. Amendment 28 seeks to recognise the on-going commitment of the teaching and education workforce and—coupled with the other amendments in the group—to address any potential impact that the bill could have on staff, so that it can be considered in the long term whether or not their engagement in outdoor education was having an impact on their terms and conditions. That is the intention behind amendment 28. I do not think that introducing a legislative duty on education authorities to provide for delivery of a course of residential outdoor education interferes with that principle. That is what teachers have told us. They were rightly raising issues of workload, however, and I have therefore lodged my amendments to draw that to the attention of Parliament, so that we are alive to those issues as the bill progresses.

We know that teachers are struggling with workload. My proposals would protect established collective bargaining structures and would ensure that the principle of voluntarism, which has long governed the participation of teachers and associated professionals in such trips, is protected and will continue.

Amendment 6, in my name, seeks to ensure that data on the impact on staff is collected so that it can be monitored. That speaks to my colleague John Mason’s intervention about the scenario of residential outdoor education being a statutory requirement but nobody deciding to volunteer for it any more. What would that mean? We would effectively come to a question of how to continue to keep the activity going. Amendment 6 and the other amendments in the group seek to monitor that while making it clear that there is a long-established process for considering the terms and conditions of teachers and staff in schools, and that the bill would not overwrite or undermine that in any way.

Amendment 6 leaves the matter of data and how often to collect it to regulations, which I think is important, but it is important to collect it nonetheless, so that we can monitor the experience in classrooms. The amendment requires a report every three years, which is also important, so that we can continue to understand the experience of learners and those working in the learning environment.

Amendments 1, 2 and 7 are consequential to amendment 6.

Amendment 29 provides that, before preparing or revising guidance under proposed new section 6B of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980, which the bill inserts, Scottish ministers must consult trade unions of school staff. The process of drafting and revising guidance must be genuinely and democratically representative of the voices of the teaching profession and of staff in schools. Professional associations have a long-standing approach to that, and amendment 29 seeks to ensure that consultation on the guidance will take place with the relevant trade unions.

Amendment 30 defines “trade union” in the bill and, one could argue, it is consequential to amendment 29.

Taken together, the suite of amendments in this group consider the important impact that any change in schools can have on staff, while recognising the will that is there and the benefit of outdoor education for all. Together, this suite of amendments will create an environment in which staff can be protected and pupils have the right to access outdoor education.

I move amendment 1.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Our next item is consideration of the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome Liz Smith MSP, the member in charge of th...
The Convener Con
Now that we have covered the process, we can move to the substantive business. Amendment 1, in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy, is grouped with amendments 2, 2...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Good morning to the committee and to Liz Smith. I set out at the start my thanks to the member in charge for the way in which she has engaged on the bill and...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
It seems to me be a bit of a challenge to tie these two things together: if a school is required to send all its children away on a trip and, in an extreme c...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I do not think that my amendment 28 would destroy the purpose of the bill; it is certainly not my intention for that to be the case. The principle of volunta...
The Convener Con
I call John Mason.
John Mason Ind
I did not realise that we were proceeding quite so quickly, convener. Following my intervention on Pam Duncan-Glancy, I continue to struggle to see how the...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I ask John Mason to forgive me for not looking in his direction, as I want to read the exact wording in the amendment. I should say, first of all, that the...
John Mason Ind
I am interested to hear what the member in charge of the bill has to say on that area, especially in relation to her amendments 13 and 14, which are in the n...
The Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise (Natalie Don-Innes) SNP
I welcome the amendments in this group and thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for lodging them and explaining their intent. The amendments, which concern the impacts of...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I understand the points that the minister is making. However, in actual fact, the intention of the amendment is to not cut across that arrangement. That is w...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
At the moment, I do not believe so. Further engagement with the unions to understand some of the complexities that we have been over in the committee previou...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
Will the minister give way? 09:45
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I want to finish responding to Ms Duncan-Glancy first. The view that I have received from the teaching unions is that legislating in the way that the bill do...
Miles Briggs Con
I agree with what the minister says. When we look at where we are delivering in Scotland—in my local authority here in Edinburgh but also in Aberdeenshire an...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
That is the impression that I got from unions—that teachers really buy into these experiences—and putting that provision in the bill could jeopardise that. ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Convener, I begin by thanking you, the committee and all those who lodged amendments to the bill, and the minister and her officials and my officials for the...
John Mason Ind
The member expresses some doubt in her remarks, but does she think that there are enough teachers willing to volunteer to get all the kids who should be goin...
Liz Smith Con
Yes, I do, and I think that the evidence shows that. Mr Briggs referred earlier to his local authority, where it is quite clear that substantial numbers of t...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
On the principle of voluntarism, it is clear from the conversation that we have had that the evidence suggests that there will be teachers and staff in schoo...
The Convener Con
Amendment 13, in the name of Liz Smith, is grouped with amendment 14.
Liz Smith Con
Amendments 13 and 14 qualify the duties on education authorities and managers of grant-aided schools to provide or secure the provision of one course of resi...
John Mason Ind
I do not wish to labour the point, but would not having enough volunteer teachers in a school for a trip be one of those reasonable reasons?
Liz Smith Con
I do not think so, given the context of how other legislation is written. The same phrase comes up in other legislation, which is one of the reasons for lodg...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I start by saying that this is the first opportunity that I have had since stage 1 to acknowledge and welcome the extremely constructive approach of the memb...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Ind) Ind
For absolute clarity on this issue, will you confirm that a local authority being under financial pressure would not be a reason to stop a school or a group ...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I do not believe that it would be. I am glad that Mr Balfour has brought up that point, because it relates to Mr Mason’s point, too. I hope that, through the...
The Convener Con
I call Liz Smith to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 13.
Liz Smith Con
I have nothing further to say, other than that I very much welcome those assurances and will press amendment 13. Amendment 13 agreed to. Amendment 14 mov...
The Convener Con
Amendment 15, in the name of Liz Smith, is grouped with amendments 3, 11, 4, 17, 5, 12 and 22 to 25. I point out that, if amendment 17 is agreed to, I cannot...