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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 November 2025

19 Nov 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Education
Smith, Liz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

In my teacher training course, the only thing that really mattered was how I could get on in front of a class. Forget all the theory, the coloured pencils, the size of the lines on the paper and what I wrote on the blackboard—that shows how long ago it was—what mattered most was how I got on with young people and, crucially, whether I could build trust between me and my pupils. That trust was partly dependent on the innate chemistry in the room but also on the environment in which the teaching and learning would take place.

I do not just mean the physical state of the building, although that is important, but the atmosphere in the classroom and whether it was based on calm self-discipline, with the expectations of high standards being well understood and adhered to, and with pupils and teachers recognising that certain structures and routines are beneficial to good-quality education.

We need a school system that works and a curriculum that inspires and is complemented by an exam system that not only aspires to the highest possible standards but is diverse and responsive to the needs of different pupils. We need a system that rewards hard work, that stands for no nonsense from disruptive pupils or, as can happen on occasion, disruptive parents, that does not pander to pupils and parents, that allows headteachers to have autonomy, and that values extracurricular activity because of what it adds to the educational experience in terms of building resilience, self-esteem and confidence.

As has been rehearsed this afternoon by several speakers, in too many cases, despite all the good things that are happening in Scottish education, we have seen a breakdown in classroom discipline, in relation to which many factors are at play. That is true in society as well as in schools, but that does not excuse it; indeed, it makes it even more important that we address the issues.

What do I want to see? First, I want to see far more autonomy for our headteachers. One example of where I think that a change could be made in that regard concerns a local authority that tells all its schools that, on their five in-service days, they must all do the same topic, irrespective of whether that topic is relevant to that particular school. That cannot be right.

We need a far more rigorous approach to the three Rs, because business and industry still moan about far too many young recruits not having a grasp of the very basic skills. No one should underestimate the frustration that young people feel if they cannot read, write and count properly, which leads to poor behaviour and a lack of motivation.

As I have said many times before in the chamber, we need to reform the middle years of secondary education so that our model is much more like the European one that values parity of esteem and develops meaningful apprenticeships at a much younger age.

We need to address the problem of the disengaged. Longer-serving members in this Parliament will recall the Newlands Junior College initiative in Glasgow, which produced excellent results when it came to motivating our most disengaged pupils. How sad it was that that could not continue because of a political agenda.

Lastly—this is probably a bit controversial, but I will say it—I am strongly of the view that we are far too inclined to make pupils believe that they cannot do things rather than that they can do things. We tend to make them think that they have a problem when they do not. That is where extracurricular activity comes in—members will not be surprised to hear me say that that includes residential outdoor education. Every young person has it within themselves to be good at something, and we should all ensure that they have the opportunity to develop their skills.

I support Pam Duncan-Glancy’s motion and Miles Briggs’s amendment.

17:04  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-19754, in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy, on education. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate t...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I apologise to members and, in particular to Bob Doris and Jamie Hepburn, for getting the two confused in my closing remarks in the previous debate.
Jamie Hepburn (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) SNP
Hear, hear!
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I am pleased to bring this debate to the chamber, which is motivated by my deep concern about the deteriorating learning and working environment in schools i...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
Doom and gloom have haunted the Scotland national men’s football team since we last qualified for the world cup in 1998, but last night they gave us all—a na...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Did the cabinet secretary not hear the final minute—or minute and a half—of my speech, in which I outlined exactly what she and the Scottish Government could...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I direct the member to her motion, which mentions nothing positive about Scotland’s education system. However, there is a huge amount to be positive about in...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I appreciate the cabinet secretary being so generous and giving way again. Can she reflect on the fact that, for hundreds of schools across the country, the ...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I do not accept the point that the member makes. She has asked me several written questions on it; some of them pertain to private finance initiative schools...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
I start on a positive note by thanking the Labour Party for sponsoring a debate on education. It is important that we have those; in January, the Scottish Co...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Did Miles Briggs take away from that conference the message that I took away from it—he has hinted that he did—which is that, without 100 per cent support fr...
Miles Briggs Con
I did. That is why I wanted to touch on the issue, on which our school leaders are asking for support. We must ensure that the Parliament and the Government ...
Lorna Slater (Lothian) (Green) Green
I am glad that the Labour Party has given us the opportunity to debate the situation in Scotland’s schools, although, frankly, I am depressed and disappointe...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
Teachers and staff do some really good things in schools. They achieve an awful lot and transform young people’s lives, and we should recognise that. However...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate, with speeches of up to four minutes from back benchers. 16:35
Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I rise to raise in particular issues of spatial planning in schools. Glasgow is facing some significant challenges in that area. After many years of populati...
Bill Kidd (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) SNP
I thank Sarah Boyack, who is sitting down the front, for lodging the motion. Never mind that Bob Doris was not even in the room! I say to Pam Duncan-Glancy t...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I thank the Presiding Officer and all colleagues for the support that they have shown to me during my recent period of leave. Being a dad is the best job in ...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I thank Labour for bringing the debate to the chamber on an afternoon that has focused on education and skills. I say at the outset that the issues in our ...
Martin Whitfield Lab
We are talking about restorative practice. Is it not right to say that that approach works only once a person has developed the skills of empathy and of unde...
Roz McCall Con
Yes—I could not agree more with that, at a certain level. However, the consequences have to be accepted not only by the pupil but by the parents, the teacher...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
The cabinet secretary opened her speech by talking about Scotland’s men’s football team and the hope that they have given us all with the great result that t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to closing speeches. 16:57
Lorna Slater Green
In my opening speech, I talked about the crushing workload challenges that teachers face as a result of the expansive and unnecessary bureaucracy that is bui...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
In my teacher training course, the only thing that really mattered was how I could get on in front of a class. Forget all the theory, the coloured pencils, t...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I welcome the MSPs and parties who have come forward with solutions during the debate. We have just been hearing from Liz Smith, a fellow former teacher, abo...
Liz Smith Con
I understand what the cabinet secretary is saying, but it is not all about money; it is about a cultural change that is required in our schools. As my collea...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I very much agree with Liz Smith’s points. In reflecting on our own teaching, we understand the importance of building trust with pupils and the class. That ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I am very much encouraged by the cabinet secretary’s points about data. Will she reflect on Lorna Slater’s point about co-ordinated support plans, which are ...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I hear Daniel Johnson’s point—Lorna Slater made a similar point. We have debated the issue at the Education, Children and Young People Committee. Co-ordinate...