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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 November 2025

19 Nov 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Skills System
Hepburn, Jamie SNP Cumbernauld and Kilsyth Watch on SPTV

I thank Daniel Johnson for the debate. It is enormously important that we discuss this issue in the chamber, to ensure that not only our young people, but those who are already in the world of work—Liz Smith made that point—have the requisite skill set that they need in order to take up the opportunities that exist in the labour market.

Those who are coming down the track are of fundamental importance. The nature of the labour market is changing. Daniel Johnson made the point about artificial intelligence changing the nature of our labour market. Automation will change the nature of our labour market, and changed patterns of consumption will do so, too. We also need to focus on the just transition, so debating the issue is important.

I absolutely agree that we should not be immune to any suggestion about how we can continue to improve our education and skills system. The minister made the point that we should not close down any discussion about how we can improve it.

Mr Johnson’s motion says that we should improve careers advice in schools. I remind him that we have the careers collaborative, which is established and is already working towards that end. His idea about having a clearing system for apprenticeships is interesting and worthy of exploration. It would not be exactly analogous to the clearing system for universities, because it is a paid employment opportunity. However, I take on board the point that Lorna Slater made about the ability for pupils to attain graduate-level qualifications while simultaneously being in employment. We are starting to see that through graduate apprenticeships being embedded as part of our skills system. We should be willing to discuss that idea further.

However, I cannot agree with the terms of Daniel Johnson’s motion, and I cannot agree with the notion that our skills system is letting down our young people. I agree with Alex Rowley that we should not talk down our system, but, when we use that type of terminology, we are at danger of doing so. The overwhelming majority of young people who leave school go on to a positive destination and have a life-changing experience, such as I had going on to further study at university, or going to college, into training—there are 38,000 apprentices in training right now—or into employment, and we should recognise that.

I will pick up on what Alex Rowley said about focusing on colleges. We have excellence in our colleges. For example, when culinary students from my local college, New College Lanarkshire, took over the restaurant in Parliament, Clare Adamson and I enjoyed their hospitality and the meal that they prepared. At its Motherwell campus, New College Lanarkshire also has a smart hub that helps hundreds of businesses to use robotics to improve their processes.

Mr Rennie mentioned Dundee and Angus College. I have had the pleasure of visiting that excellent college, which is doing excellent activity. Edinburgh College, in Mr Johnson’s home city, with its digital care hubs, is preparing people for opportunities in health and social care, with a particular focus on technology-enabled care. I could go on with many examples from across the country that I have seen first hand.

We should reflect on the fact that, although our system can, of course, always be refined and improved, there is already excellence. If we are going to have the type of conversation that we should have about improving our education and skills system, we must bear in mind that we already have strong underpinnings.

15:36  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-19756, in the name of Daniel Johnson, on Scotland’s skills system. I invite members who wish to participa...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Interruption. Apologies, Presiding Officer. There were some odd flashing lights on my console—hence my swift manoeuvre. I have a speech prepared, but I firs...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic (Kate Forbes) SNP
I am listening to the member with interest, and he will know that I believe that the scale of opportunity in Scotland is such that we need to have a skills p...
Daniel Johnson Lab
That intervention from the Deputy First Minister ignores the fact that the number of people who are economically inactive is higher in Scotland than in the U...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson) SNP
Excuse me—I lost my voice slightly at Hampden last night, as I am sure much of the country did, across different parts of our society. What we witnessed last...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Does the minister not at least agree that the fact that 4,500 fewer people than the Government’s own targets are getting an apprenticeship means that young p...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I have stated before, as have colleagues, that we have an ambition to grow the number of modern apprenticeships, graduate apprenticeships and foundation appr...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I agree entirely with what the minister has just said. Nonetheless, I was at a conference at Edinburgh Napier University on Monday at which people were sayin...
Ben Macpherson SNP
That is a significant point that gets to the heart of the skills agenda that we are undertaking through a programme and a set of primary legislative changes....
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The minister is concluding.
Ben Macpherson SNP
This year, we also have a record number of more than 110,000 vocational and technical qualification awards. There is more to do. That is why the primary leg...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I remind members who wish to participate in the debate but have not already pressed their request-to-speak buttons to please do so now. 15:15
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
When I saw that it was to be Labour business today, I thought that Daniel Johnson might have chosen to debate next week’s tax rises by the Chancellor of the ...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I challenge Mr Fraser and colleagues on that. The current system is working very well for many people, including many employers and many learners. Is it nece...
Murdo Fraser Con
I say to Mr Macpherson that he should go back and review the evidence to which I referred, because it gives a somewhat different picture. Part of my concern...
Kate Forbes SNP
Will the member give way?
Murdo Fraser Con
I think that I am in my last minute.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You are.
Murdo Fraser Con
I apologise to the Deputy First Minister. Whereas employers in England can directly access those funds, that is not the case in Scotland. The latest data sh...
Lorna Slater (Lothian) (Green) Green
The Economy and Fair Work Committee has heard over and over again about the advantages of workplace learning, not only for traditional vocational careers but...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude.
Lorna Slater Green
Not only are most apprentices men, but women apprentices are consigned to lower-paying sectors and lower-paying jobs. It is worth prioritising and correcting...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
The good news is that there is huge demand for apprenticeships. It is fantastic that so many people are willing to learn and that we have excellent people wh...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the open debate. 15:28
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
When I looked at the motion and the amendments for the debate, I could see in each a lot of positives on which we could agree. It would be great if political...
Jamie Hepburn (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) SNP
I thank Daniel Johnson for the debate. It is enormously important that we discuss this issue in the chamber, to ensure that not only our young people, but th...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
MSPs have described how they feel that Scotland’s skills system is failing too many young people and is holding back our economic growth. There is a need for...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
As always, I am delighted to speak in support of our education and skills sector. It is great to see Labour at long last accepting what I and my colleagues o...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
It is a great pleasure to speak about the vital work that is under way across our education and skills system, which is helping people of all ages to reach t...