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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 November 2025

19 Nov 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Skills System

The Economy and Fair Work Committee has heard over and over again about the advantages of workplace learning, not only for traditional vocational careers but also for secondary school pupils and post-secondary students. I am still reasonably shocked by the relatively limited joint working between industry in Scotland and Scotland’s universities and colleges, compared with course delivery in North America. When I graduated in engineering way back in 2000, I did so with more than two years of work experience in industry through my university’s co-op programme. That involved paid work—at well above the minimum wage—in chunks of four, eight or 12 months.

In the United States and Canada, it is normal process for engineering companies to take on engineering students to undertake discrete projects, and to attract potential talent for long-term recruitment. That helps students to cover the costs of learning and it helps them to gain invaluable skills. When I arrived in the UK, I was offered two jobs in my first two weeks here on the basis that I had practical experience, even as a fresh graduate, which gave me a significant advantage over my UK peers.

There is a great deal of scope for improved connections between post-secondary education and industry in Scotland to support success in key industries and to make our graduates employable. There is also scope to find alternative funding streams to support the delivery of post-secondary education, perhaps by getting industry to fund either key placements of students or equipment that students might need to use. The Scottish Government should show leadership and set out intentions on that with urgency.

Apprenticeships in Scotland are a mixed story. Employers are very keen to hire apprentices, and apprenticeships are in high demand. A higher percentage of apprentices go on to work in the subject area that they have been trained in, compared with university students. However, I was unable to find statistics on that for college graduates, which somewhat begs the question about the difference in focus and funding between those two routes. It could be said that substantial public funds are being wasted on students who study at university but do not go on to work in their field of study. At the very least, that should be a matter of self-reflection for universities that are claiming financial difficulties.

Additional funding for apprenticeships to allow more people of all ages to take them up would be a sound investment in Scotland’s future. About 90 per cent of the people who study in an apprenticeship go on to work in the field or sector in which they have studied, so that learning is valuable.

Several matters concern me about how apprenticeships are being delivered in Scotland, despite the positive headlines. First, the quality of apprenticeships varies widely, with no standards for minimum training hours or quality of instructors. I met an apprentice who worked for one of our local authorities. That young woman had no standard hours for training, and she was expected to do online training. If she did not get on with her supervisor or did not think that the training was adequate, there was no one that she could complain to, and her supervisor could fail her if she issued complaints. That is not a good standard of training.

Apprentices in traditional trades have union representation to look out for their interests and the quality of their instruction, but other apprentices lack that representation and have no one to turn to if they are mistreated or are provided with sub-par training. Apprentices need an independent regulatory body to ensure fair treatment and quality control. That is especially critical for apprentices in sectors that do not have a college affiliation.

Apprenticeships in Scotland are substantially focused on men, to the disadvantage of women.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-19756, in the name of Daniel Johnson, on Scotland’s skills system. I invite members who wish to participa...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Interruption. Apologies, Presiding Officer. There were some odd flashing lights on my console—hence my swift manoeuvre. I have a speech prepared, but I firs...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic (Kate Forbes) SNP
I am listening to the member with interest, and he will know that I believe that the scale of opportunity in Scotland is such that we need to have a skills p...
Daniel Johnson Lab
That intervention from the Deputy First Minister ignores the fact that the number of people who are economically inactive is higher in Scotland than in the U...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson) SNP
Excuse me—I lost my voice slightly at Hampden last night, as I am sure much of the country did, across different parts of our society. What we witnessed last...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Does the minister not at least agree that the fact that 4,500 fewer people than the Government’s own targets are getting an apprenticeship means that young p...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I have stated before, as have colleagues, that we have an ambition to grow the number of modern apprenticeships, graduate apprenticeships and foundation appr...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I agree entirely with what the minister has just said. Nonetheless, I was at a conference at Edinburgh Napier University on Monday at which people were sayin...
Ben Macpherson SNP
That is a significant point that gets to the heart of the skills agenda that we are undertaking through a programme and a set of primary legislative changes....
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The minister is concluding.
Ben Macpherson SNP
This year, we also have a record number of more than 110,000 vocational and technical qualification awards. There is more to do. That is why the primary leg...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I remind members who wish to participate in the debate but have not already pressed their request-to-speak buttons to please do so now. 15:15
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
When I saw that it was to be Labour business today, I thought that Daniel Johnson might have chosen to debate next week’s tax rises by the Chancellor of the ...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I challenge Mr Fraser and colleagues on that. The current system is working very well for many people, including many employers and many learners. Is it nece...
Murdo Fraser Con
I say to Mr Macpherson that he should go back and review the evidence to which I referred, because it gives a somewhat different picture. Part of my concern...
Kate Forbes SNP
Will the member give way?
Murdo Fraser Con
I think that I am in my last minute.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You are.
Murdo Fraser Con
I apologise to the Deputy First Minister. Whereas employers in England can directly access those funds, that is not the case in Scotland. The latest data sh...
Lorna Slater (Lothian) (Green) Green
The Economy and Fair Work Committee has heard over and over again about the advantages of workplace learning, not only for traditional vocational careers but...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude.
Lorna Slater Green
Not only are most apprentices men, but women apprentices are consigned to lower-paying sectors and lower-paying jobs. It is worth prioritising and correcting...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
The good news is that there is huge demand for apprenticeships. It is fantastic that so many people are willing to learn and that we have excellent people wh...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the open debate. 15:28
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
When I looked at the motion and the amendments for the debate, I could see in each a lot of positives on which we could agree. It would be great if political...
Jamie Hepburn (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) SNP
I thank Daniel Johnson for the debate. It is enormously important that we discuss this issue in the chamber, to ensure that not only our young people, but th...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
MSPs have described how they feel that Scotland’s skills system is failing too many young people and is holding back our economic growth. There is a need for...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
As always, I am delighted to speak in support of our education and skills sector. It is great to see Labour at long last accepting what I and my colleagues o...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
It is a great pleasure to speak about the vital work that is under way across our education and skills system, which is helping people of all ages to reach t...