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Committee

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee 04 November 2025

04 Nov 2025 · S6 · Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Item of business
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

At the outset, I state that I broadly agree with much of what Jeremy Balfour has set out. To my mind, the debate has been marked by two substantial features both for those who are advocating for the bill and for those who are speaking against it, in that we all want to provide dignity and empowerment for those who are in the final stages of their lives and who may well be suffering from conditions and diseases that leave them in an intolerable situation. On the other hand, we also want to ensure that we do not foster a culture in which people feel as though they are under pressure to end their life or that there is an expectation that they do so in certain circumstances, particularly when that involves things such as mental illness, disability and other such issues, as Jeremy Balfour has set out. That is why I think that the definition of terminal illness is so important.

I understand that definitions are always difficult and I understand the reasons why the definition in the bill was arrived at but, to my mind, the key point is that the bill’s provisions must be used only when a person’s death is imminent and expected. If I were to put it glibly, in a sense, we all have a terminal and progressive condition, but the immediateness of it is relative. That is why I think that it is important to include some sort of time boundary, not just for clarity but to prevent judicial expansion, which we have all been very concerned about, based on situations in other countries. I think that there is an inherent issue with the accuracy and effectiveness of time limits. The point is not necessarily about the accuracy of a prognosis; it is about clarity on the immediacy of the likelihood of a person’s death and whether that is a reasonable expectation. Including a time boundary could provide absolute clarity that the likelihood of a person’s death has some immediacy, so that the time period is counted not in years or decades but in weeks or months.

Jeremy Balfour’s amendment 143 sets out the time boundary as three months, which I think is probably too short. If we are leaving these decisions to be made only when death is very proximate, that could preclude people from making a decision as calmly and in as informed a way as possible, although I think that three months would be better than no time limit. If my amendment 4 is pre-empted, I will understand. Whether the committee decides on a timeframe of three months or six months, we need a time limitation in order to set out clearly that there should be the expectation of the likelihood of a person’s death being imminent.

In the same item of business

The Convener (Clare Haughey) SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 29th meeting in 2025 of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee. I have received apologies from Paul Sweeney, and Jackie...
The Convener SNP
Amendment 143, in the name of Jeremy Balfour, is grouped with amendments 4, 144, 24, 73, 26 and 84.
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Ind) Ind
Good morning, convener, members of the committee and other members. Thank you for having us at the meeting to discuss some very important amendments. I will ...
The Convener SNP
I point out to the committee that, due to pre-emption, if amendment 143 is agreed to, I cannot call amendments 4 and 144, and, if amendment 26 is agreed to, ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
At the outset, I state that I broadly agree with much of what Jeremy Balfour has set out. To my mind, the debate has been marked by two substantial features ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Good morning, convener. I thank all members who have lodged amendments to the bill at stage 2. The breadth of the amendments will allow most of the substanti...
Jeremy Balfour Ind
To some extent, amendment 143 is a probing amendment. Does the member recognise that, in the social security legislation that the Parliament passed in the pr...
Liam McArthur LD
I thank Jeremy Balfour for that, and for clarification that amendment 143 is more of a probing amendment. As I say, it is important that we have this discuss...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the member accept my point that, in principle, rather than necessarily establishing an accurate prognosis, setting a time limit is about trying to set a...
Liam McArthur LD
As I say, other jurisdictions operate using prognostic periods and issues appear to be manageable within that context. Nevertheless, the argument is about es...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I am listening carefully to the points that are being made. The point in amendment 24 about a person not being terminally ill only because they are disabled ...
Liam McArthur LD
I do not happen to agree with that. As I go through and respond to the amendments, the rationale for that might become clearer. Amendments 143 and 144 offe...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam McArthur LD
I am going to make a little more progress, Ms Duncan-Glancy. Adding terms such as “substantially slowed down” is likely only to add to confusion. Although...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
Amendments 73 and 84—amendment 84 is consequential—are to make it clear that a person is not considered terminally ill solely because they have a mental diso...
Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I declare an interest as a practising national health service general practitioner and chair of the medical advisory group on the bill. I would like to sa...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I understand Sandesh Gulhane’s background in the area, so I know that he will be aware of all the significant research that shows that non-disabled people’s ...
Sandesh Gulhane Con
Pam Duncan-Glancy has the opportunity to lodge an amendment that says that people with disabilities cannot access assisted dying. I would not support such an...
Jeremy Balfour Ind
I am interested to explore that a wee bit, because the member is saying that someone could say, “My life is no longer meaningful because I have been diagnose...
Sandesh Gulhane Con
I start by saying that this is not assisted suicide. This is assisted dying, as the bill puts it, but Mr Balfour has called it assisted suicide multiple time...
Liam McArthur LD
I think that Sandesh Gulhane is right to point to the importance of autonomy, but does he also agree that the safeguards in the bill would require discussion...
Sandesh Gulhane Con
I agree with that—I would go as far as saying that that was literally the next thing that I was going to say. I absolutely agree with everything that has jus...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
First, I have a brief comment on Liam McArthur and Jackie Baillie’s amendments. I agree with Liam McArthur that the meaning that is captured in the amendment...
Daniel Johnson Lab
I understand the member’s point—you do not lodge an amendment that proposes a time boundary without thinking about such things. On the other hand, the princi...
Patrick Harvie Green
The most important thing that we should bear in mind is that that is how people are overwhelmingly likely to use the right to seek assistance. The idea that ...
Elena Whitham (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) SNP
From the outset, my position is that I support Liam McArthur’s amendment 24, because it will allow us to put in place some more safeguards around the definit...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I recognise the member’s commitment to and support for the bill. If there was no time limit, what would be the difference between a person living as a disabl...
Elena Whitham SNP
We have heard from Liam McArthur about the differences. I agree that people who are terminally ill will, by definition, probably be considered to be disabled...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
Elena Whitham said that she is not minded to support a six-month prognosis at this stage but indicated that, as the debate goes on, she could be persuaded ot...
The Convener SNP
I call Jeremy Balfour to wind up. I remind members that, if amendment 143 is agreed to, I cannot call amendments 4 and 144, due to pre-emption.