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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 18 September 2025

18 Sep 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

I think that the committee’s report is a must-read for all MSPs. Although we lodged an amendment to the motion, Scottish Labour welcomes and notes the report, and recognises the range of recommendations that have been made on new and existing commissioners; on governance and accountability; on budget and audit issues; and on shared services.

The problem that we have with the motion is that, on the one hand, it says that

“the SPCB supported body landscape should not be expanded to include new advocacy-type SPCB supported bodies”,

but on the other hand, it goes on to state that new bodies should meet the justification and effectiveness test that is set out in paragraph 150 of the report. The key issue is the justification and effectiveness criteria, which should be used when the relevant parliamentary committee is considering proposals to establish a new commissioner.

I have followed the committee’s work both because it addresses the important issue of the growing landscape of commissioners and because, during this parliamentary session, I have been working on my own member’s bill, which is focused on accountability; on coherence in public bodies in relation to wellbeing and sustainable development; and on ensuring that the Scottish Government, our councils and the wider public sector are held to account for their impact, both now and in the future. In his speech earlier today, John Swinney referenced George Reid’s call for a sense of purpose, because “Today is tomorrow.”

Last year, I secured a debate to recognise the United Nations declaration on future generations. I argued that one of the most important things that we can do is to think about how we build a society in which people’s wellbeing and sustainable development are built into the actions of, and the policy and spending decisions made by, all our Government and public sector bodies in Scotland. To deliver on those principles, we need clear guidance, accountability and a focus on ensuring that they are not just warm words but actually delivered. Hence, I propose that there should be a commissioner with investigatory powers.

The report that we are debating references proposals for new commissioners and describes them as “advocacy” commissioners. I do not agree with that in relation to my proposed commissioner, and I was clear about that in my evidence to the committee. As Martin Whitfield acknowledged, yesterday, the Parliament established a new victims and witnesses commissioner—that, too, is listed as an advocacy commissioner. There have been questions about whether the powers of that new commissioner are actually sufficient.

I am glad that the SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee acknowledges the positive contribution that has been made by existing commissioners and that they

“fulfil a vital function in safeguarding public trust, institutional integrity and democratic accountability”.

Although the report notes some overlap between them, the evidence was that

“each of the existing SPCB supported bodies provides a unique and necessary contribution.”

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-18936, in the name of Ben Macpherson, on behalf of the SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee, ...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
As convener of the SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee, I am pleased to open the debate. The strategic review was commissioned by the Parliamen...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Given that the findings were unanimous and followed on from the unanimous findings of the Finance and Public Administration Committee, does the member agree ...
Ben Macpherson SNP
I do, and I urge Parliament not to support the amendment. I will say more about that in due course. Before I turn to the detail of our deliberations and our...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Ben Macpherson talks about the existing landscape, but does he accept that, for most people, having a standards commission and a commissioner for ethical sta...
Ben Macpherson SNP
In some ways, I can see why members and others might look at the distinction between the two bodies critically. However, our committee heard quite good evide...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Only yesterday, in passing the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill at stage 3, we brought into existence the role of victims and witnesses...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you the time back for interventions, Mr Macpherson.
Ben Macpherson SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I thank Martin Whitfield for a constructive intervention. The committee took into consideration the processes that were put fo...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I think that the committee’s report is a must-read for all MSPs. Although we lodged an amendment to the motion, Scottish Labour welcomes and notes the report...
John Mason Ind
Will the member give way?
Sarah Boyack Lab
I will not because I am very tight for time—perhaps, if I have time later, I will. The recommendations on induction and training in the next session of the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Thank you, Ms Boyack. I advise members that we have a bit of time in hand, so I imagine that members will be able to get the time back for any interventions....
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am speaking today as a member of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. I begin by thanking the SPCB Supported Bodies Lan...
Martin Whitfield Lab
Is the SPCB concerned that, if a new committee is created to, in effect, apply the two tests for a new commissioner, the SPCB would be required to give evide...
Maggie Chapman Green
I will come on to say more about the potential new committee in a moment. The corporate body wants to ensure that the office-holder landscape is coherent and...
Ben Macpherson SNP
As a point of clarity, it is worth emphasising that the committee’s recommendation was not necessarily that a new committee be established. That was a potent...
Maggie Chapman Green
Yes, that is understood, and that is why I couched my comments in such a way as to refer to what would happen should that committee be established. However, ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
I call Kenneth Gibson to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. 15:48
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. As members know, the SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee w...
Martin Whitfield Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Kenneth Gibson SNP
I am happy to take an intervention from the defender of the committee structures.
Martin Whitfield Lab
I have great respect for Kenneth Gibson, but I find his comment about an amendment to a motion—albeit on the back of a committee debate, which was occasioned...
Kenneth Gibson SNP
That is desperate stuff. Let us be honest: if the member’s colleague who is sat next to him, Sarah Boyack, did not have a proposal to create a commissioner, ...
The Minister for Public Finance (Ivan McKee) SNP
I welcome the SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee’s report and recommendations on how the SPCB-supported bodies landscape can be improved. It is...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
For clarity, and bearing in mind Kenny Gibson’s comment about how a deadline helps to get things delivered, when is the deadline for that work to be completed?
Ivan McKee SNP
Stephen Kerr is absolutely right. He should be aware that there are 18 workstreams across the PSR strategy, and we have spent the summer putting together the...
John Mason Ind
I take the minister’s point—he has said it before, and he is absolutely right—that that is a relatively small amount of money in the scheme of things. Howeve...
Ivan McKee SNP
John Mason makes that point very well. I acknowledged at the start of my contribution that the debate has much wider significance across the public service r...
Martin Whitfield Lab
With regard to the concept of a human rights commissioner, will the Scottish Government follow the process that it has taken with the victims and witnesses c...